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Author Topic: Clinton or Obama?  (Read 10456 times)
MrILoveTheAnts
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« on: February 26, 2008, 06:49:04 PM »

For those of you voting Democrat... why does Obama have such support? Is it so important to get a half black president that we're willing to throw the idea of Universal Health Care out the window? The only difference I see between Obama and Hillary is Health Care.
Hillary wants Universal Health Care coverage, meaning everyone. Obama only wants children and seniors. As someone caught in the middle why would I ever want to pay for someone else's health care coverage? Why does less health care coverage make Obama more popular? I wouldn't mind paying for it if it would cover me as well and that's why I'm leaning towards Hillary.
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 07:02:49 PM »

The problem I have with all the candidates is that they can promise the moon but unless congress is behind them, it doesn't matter - so it doesn't matter what their platform is - So what does matter?  Well, all we can use for judgment is seeing if they appear to demonstrate to the people of the US that they are dependable, honest (a politician???), have integrity, etc.

Healthcare in the US is a mess - the insurance plans that people have available to them now are HMOs where the practitioners are often fairly inexperienced, POSs which are HMOs in sheep's clothing, PPOs where you can choose in some plans the provider you use, but the plan pays poorly if the provider is out of network, etc. etc.  Here in Georgia most of us providers have left BCBS which is one of the state's largest insurers because they lowered the rates they pay providers to such a low level that most of us can't afford to offer services at that level.

I don't think any candidate currently running in either party will be able to solve the healthcare crisis  - they can promise all kinds of things they can't deliver - we'll have to get in a much worse fix before change will be made and I don't think it will be because someone is elected but rather because the American people get fed up to the point that they can influence their Congresspersons. 

Linda T bitter in Atlanta
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Kev
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 07:15:27 PM »

Believe it or not, but you're already paying for other people's health coverage:
You're paying for senior's coverage and the poor through taxes that pay for medicare and medicaid. 

If you have health insurance, you are paying for everyone in your insurance company's group of covered lives, and you are paying for a lot of people who don't have health insurance, too. Here's how that works:

People who don't have insurance either pay cash when they get sick or don't pay anything. Most of the time they are afraid to go to a doctor so they wait until they're really sick and they wind up in the emergency room. BUT because they don't have insurance and they can't afford to pay the bill, this winds up as bad debt on the hospital's books. To make up that loss. The hospital raises it's charges. In other words, hospitals build that cost right into what they charge insurance companies for treating people with insurance.

So guess what? You and I and everyone who has insurance is footing the bill for everyone who doesn't already. The only difference is that this way costs a lot more than if we could get them covered and in to see a doctor before they wind up in the Emergency room.

BUT government run health insurance has problems too.  Politicians promise lots of benefits but never want to pay for what those benefits cost.  That's why England, Canada and other systems have problems. You can buy a Rolls for a Yugo price. In health care there really are only three things you can manage:
  • You can manage the access: limit who is allowed to get care. That's not very nice.
  • You can pay doctors and hospitals less: that leads to fewer doctors and shortages of care, which we already are experiencing in parts of the US right now
  • You can restrict which services are paid for. That's tough choice, but it the only way to keep costs down

Why people like Obama. Electibility. His race has nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure which way I'll vote, yet. But I grew up in the deep south, and I know that Clinton just can't win there, too much baggage. Obama might be able to. I think other people sense that, too.

kev
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008, 07:41:53 PM »

kev, it's not just the deep south.  it's a lot of older people too.  my MIL is a big D democrat.  she mindlessly marks the d all the way down the ballot.  she will not vote for obama so i don't know what she'll do if he's the pick. 

now don't chop my head off, but i have some ideas about why obama is so popular.  he makes people feel good.  i even like listening to him.  he's an outstanding speaker.  unfortunately, if you just read all that he has said and don't listen to him, there isn't much there.  listening to hillary is a bit like listening to a kid scrape his nails down a chalkboard.  plus, she has lots of baggage.

since liberals tend to make decision based more on how they feel, or who will do the most for everybody, obama is a great candidate.  i think he has a good chance of winning if he is the dems pick.  it would be unfortunate for the country, but we can rename ourselves France West  smiley.
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MrILoveTheAnts
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 08:00:35 PM »

So his soothing voice means he should lead the country? You're the 5th person I've herd say this. (I suppose it's better then Gay Marriage being the key issue in an election.)
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2008, 08:25:42 PM »

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So his soothing voice means he should lead the country

no, but it might mean that he will.  when people can not separate fact from feeling, you end up with leaders who make you feel good.  at least temporarily.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2008, 10:27:52 PM »

Well, I am supporting Obeema for sure Kiss
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2008, 10:48:01 PM »

Yea, I am not sure about this election year. For the first time I am really worried about what could potentially happen... I know what you mean about Obama and his smooth talking. I agree that nothing much happens unless congress is behing the president anyway, but the universal health care thing scares me. I have lived in foriegn countries where the socialistic health care is not much more than a gym locker room with a few unhappy health care providers. I know that we have problems that need to be dealt with, but as someone who has lived in a lot of different countries, trust me our current health care system is far and away better than most.
My biggest problem with the current situation is that I think we have finally gotten to the point where we have a generation of "Pro Polititions". No longer is it the town doctor, or the local business man/woman who because of his/her integrity, and skills that he/she has developed over the course their career is a natural fit for the political scene. I think that we have canidates that are just in the mode of doing whatever to get into the next office. I hate that. Hilliary is actually a pretty good senator. But a senator is far and away different from being an executive. People are good at all different things. Some are good executives, some are good managers, and some are good salesmen (Obama). Just because you are a great salesman does not make you a good executive. I know I am one. I am a world class salesman, I do seminars all over the place. I am great at doing what a salesman does. I have been called that "silver tongued devil" many times. But I also know that if you put me in a room full of VP's and Directors and told me I had to navigate that world, I would fail miserably. It takes a lot to be a CEO. I deal with a lot of them. I even train a lot of them in very specific new areas. But there is a lot in the life  "The CEO" of the free world.
I have just grown to hate this current political scene. There is not currently anyone in the running that seems to actually get anything done. I love to ask Obama supporters to name anything that he has acomplished.. I love the silence that follows that question. I don't think that Hillary is an executive. I think that Macain is a "Pro Politition", that will just do what is needed  and say what is needed to get elected. I hate that.
Ultimately we have created this environment by not holding these guys accountable once we elect them. I would love the see the term limits thing come into play where they only get two terms to get something done. So they better work together and get it done. As there career beyond politics will be judged by what they got done.
Ok, I rambled on enough.
F
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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2008, 11:12:21 PM »

it was a good rambling.  you pretty accurately assessed the pickle we are in.  i, too, have seen national health care.  it sucks.  unfortunately the people who back it have not seen it.  i go back to my original thought; congress should be limited in it's scope and time.  if they were doing the narrow job that they are constitutionally mandated to do, they would not need to be in washington full time and they would not be spending our money hand over fist.

i think the mccain would be in for a rude awakening as president.  all these folks that he find consensus with now, would be out for his hide if he were prez.  i do not think he is capable of making hard decisions on his own. i have never like or trusted him.  obama and hillary are (at best) socialists.  socialism doesn't work.  fastest way to destroy productivity and progress is to try to redistribute wealth. 

i think we are over a barrel on this one.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2008, 12:59:12 AM »

Quote
but the universal health care thing scares me. I have lived in foriegn countries where the socialistic health care is not much more than a gym locker room with a few unhappy health care providers.

We have universal care in Spain. Socialist thought that is something basic. Like the legal aid. It´s not perfect, but I´m happy, like occidental man that can´t tolerate the economic inequality consecuences and because the universal care covers very expensive treatments that can´t be paid by the normal people.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2008, 12:25:14 PM »

we can do national health care.  the questions are what happens to quality of care and how do we pay for it?  i am only really familiar with two universal health care countries.  i have had some experience with the Canadian system because we used to get patients down here who could not get care in Canada.  they could not get things like MRIs, even CT scans without a long wait.  some surgeries were delayed.  some treatments were delayed.  some of the drugs that we consider SOC here were not available.

in england, the problem is even worse.  hospitals are falling apart.  they are behind in basic SOC for almost everything.  they are behind in drug therapies.  surgeries that we would consider urgent or even emergencies are put off.  i know of one woman who had to wait 3 weeks for a breast biopsy and then another 6 weeks after diagnosis of cancer to begin treatment.  while we were using drugs like Tamoxafin, it was not available to her because of the cost.  diabetic wound care is 20 years behind.  heart surgeries that we would do the day after diagnosing the need for a triple bypass can be put off for months.  one child presented with fever and lethargy repeatedly over 6 months, and was  treated with antibiotics, but no diagnostic tests were done.

so our system is not perfect, but rather than trashing the health care system for over 300 million people, why not figure out how to fix it for the few million who have no insurance.  even if you come up with a solution, you can not force people to take advantage of it.  we have a state health care program here that is designed to cover the working poor.  we have several thousand children who qualify but are not signed up by their parents.  there are people who choose not to have insurance.  i don't think we should be covering illegals.  by the time you have reworked the numbers, you don't have anything close to the much reported 40 million uninsured.

BTW, the Brits will tell you that they are happy with NHS, but anyone with any money has private insurance.  with the private insurance they don't have to wait for treatments and the care is much better.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2008, 02:33:05 PM »

I think some people like Obama b/c he the antithesis of Bush. Both visually and the way in which he carries himself and talks. "Smoother" w/o the "bumbling awe shucks mannerisms" of Bush. People want change, and he fits the "image" of change w/o perhaps any real differance in actual substance. For many, he's not Clinton as well. Ironically, Obama's start is owed to Bill in many ways.
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2008, 05:00:35 PM »

The canidates don't really care about our health care. They have the best in the world for themselves. Their retirement is the same as their working wage, if what they do is called work. BY Nov. they will have spent a year and a half trying to get another job while not doing the job they were elected to, getting payed by you and I all the time  and still have the balls to ask us to finance their
jet setting life style campaigns from our shallow pockets so thiers can get deeper. Huckabee seems to be the only one running who had to stop campaigning to go make some money so he could keep the wolf away from the door. I guess thats his problem, not enough money. I think I like Mike. Don't look for any big changes from any of the front runners,it's the same old political bull crap,just talk never any action. Career politicians love us folks who just judge them and their preformance on a 15 second sound bite, put a X in front of
their name then go back to the same old same old and think, well,maybe in 4 more years. Good luck!!

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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2008, 05:48:00 PM »

Wow after reading all this I think I will vote for Obuzzma instead of Obeema
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2008, 06:55:53 PM »

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People want change, and he fits the "image" of change w/o perhaps any real difference in actual substance

probably very true.  the election of either hillary or obama would bring about change more radical than most people realize.  this would be especially true if congress remains as it is or goes more democrat.  they represent a total change of values from democracy to socialism.  there is some difference between the unrealized concern that the government might look at your library records, and that the government might garnish your wages to force you into a government controlled health care system.  there is a difference between a trade agreement, and embracing UN controlled internationalism. 

we go through swings.  that's normal.  this will be a much bigger swing left than we have ever seen.  it is interesting that the same people who would not change jobs, remodel the kitchen, or move to a new town without a real plan, will embrace "change" as a political platform without knowing what that change entails.

historically, more countries are ruined by change than made better.  we'll have to see how this goes.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 12:10:51 AM »

Have you noticed that the more things look grim for Hilary the shriller she becomes.  Obama on the other hand is pleasant to listen to, nice baritone voice.  This election will pit what may be described as a Democratic Lincoln against another Eisenhower.  So the final question is do you want to feel good or do some good?
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2008, 02:52:07 AM »

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Have you noticed that the more things look grim for Hilary the shriller she becomes

Diste en el clavo "squarely in the middle".

 Here in Spain, the news speaks about USA elections...as you can imagine.
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2008, 11:29:04 AM »

Hmmm...and I thought that Universal Health Care (ie. YAGCC - You All Get Crappy Coverage) is the reason that we want to throw Hillary out the window!!!
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Rick
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2008, 11:37:45 AM »

 She scares me...& now is sounding like a jr. High girl making fun of everyone else....not a good indication of character or how she will handle things that don't go her way...lets not forget the healthcare investigation deal she was involved in &whitewater?
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MrILoveTheAnts
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2008, 11:54:35 AM »

Bill Clinton brought to this country 8 years of unsurpassed economic growth. (or something like that.) I know we can't say much about his taste in women but really how bad could Hillary be as president?
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