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Author Topic: Latest on CCD  (Read 11803 times)
rdy-b
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2008, 08:44:12 PM »

This has changed since the last I saw it. There were beekeepers named. Sorry I didn't get them when I had the chance.

Noticed this.

"Specific names have been removed because a prevailing sentiment among beekeepers has it that admitting to colony collapse disorder problems reflects badly on them (it should not)."
     WOW that took some doing I bet its been scrubed cool  spokey eh -RDY-B
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BEH
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2008, 01:13:12 AM »

Hi beesbeesbees   I too like to see the facts in support of  a theory.  I tend to research everything to death until I feel satisfied with the answers. Just my nature.  Smiley  Like Cindi said there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. Debate is healthy.

Nobody is ever going to find the cause  and cure of this tragic problem if we dont ask questions and propose theories.

It seems like the biggest problem here is that there is not much to go on. Lots of empty hives but not many clues. Or perhaps clues we havn't discovered yet..

I am not an alarmist, but it would not suprise me if GMO's are the cause.

I dont really know enough about this subject to discuss it, CCD.

I do know that GMO's   ARE   scary.   Various research I have read on them has not been encouraging.  I can not remember my source of information but I remember reading about a study done on GMO tomatos. I think it was done by Cornell University, but I'm not sure. In the study they fed GMO tomatos to rats. Rats love tomatos. This I can attest to, I have seen a rat bypass a dish of dog food to steal a tomato from my garden instead. (hey, I live in a city I do occasionally see out door rats) Anyway, in the study even though rats love tomatos they would not eat the GMO ones. So the scientists force fed the rats the tomatos. Like 7 out of 10 rats developed ulcers and 3 out of 10 died. Im not swearing by my figures but it is something like that. AND the USDA still deamed the tomatos OK for human consumption.  angry   In another study crows and raccoons would not eat GMO corn. So what do Mother Natures other creatures know that we dont?

Perhaps the Bees know this as well. Perhaps they wouldnt eat the corn syrup mixture because either the pollen or the syrup was GMO. Its as good a theory as any so far.

Hmmmm...if they starved to death though wouldnt there be more dead bees?  If a winter starved hive dies, don't you find the remaining cluster of bees dead? Cry   If there are not many dead bees then it seems like they must have gone somewhere.   Unless they left in search of food and died elsewhere.

Sorry, just trying to think out loud.   Not trying to be offensive or a know it all, just trying to understand it.  Sad

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beesbeesbees
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2008, 11:49:32 AM »

BEH,
I'm hip.  I'm all on board with a discussion of GMO's though my experience is primarily with Roundup ready crops.  Though I haven't driven a tractor in the field in 10 years other than to put up alfalfa hay with dad (in front of my apiary) I make it a point to keep tabs on what my neighbors are doing.  Right now they are tending toward 3 applications of Roundup to kill ALL annual weeds.  They rotate corn/beans and farm to the very edges of the fields.  There are no fencerows anymore (where I live in Illinois) because livestock are only kept for a hobby.  Now, if we kill all the weeds to keep our fields clean year round for a 4-6 month monoculture where are my bees (and let's not overlook the wild birds) going to forage?

That's my argument against GMO.  We are sponsoring irresponsible land husbandry with $5 corn and ethanol will only make it worse.  I don't have any GMO data on abnormal growths in animal trials.

Does anybody remember the hype that frogs got 10 years ago?  Frogs were found with developmental abnormalities and nothing else made the news for a while.  I researched this subject at an undergraduate level for several years, presented at an international meeting, listened to and read TONS of funded, graduate-level research on the subject and came away without any real answers.  From all that I came away with two realistic possibilities:
Either it always happens at about the same rate and we were just finding them more frequently (like polydactyly, it just happens sometimes)
OR something released low dosages of a vitamin-A like compound.  Maybe an introduced plant, common agricultural chemical, McDonalds packaging???  Vitamin-A has been shown to cause wild developmental issues during the development stage (see thalidomide).  To my knowledge (Please show me I'm wrong) no definitive cause of frog malformation was found and the news eventually got stale.

Frogs sold copy better than they funded research.  I'm happy to have news about CCD out there but in the time since we have named this phenomonon we haven't gained any ground.  It looks like the frog thing all over again.  Are we using dead bees to sell copy?  We must demand real research.  Not opinion-driven publications from university professors who MUST publish or lose tenure (are eggs good or bad for us?).  Not fear-inspiring articles in local newspapers about a future of humans using q-tips to pollinate the almond trees (Stl Post Dispatch).  Real, honest research.   I don't know how to fund it.  I don't know how to participate at my scale.  But I'm sure if we put our heads together we can do better.  And along the way we may find out how bad corn syrup is and stop drinking so much Coke.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2008, 12:30:47 AM »

IMHO, we're going to find a mixture of causes to CCD and no clear smoking gun.  GMOs, pesticides, miticides, virises, interstate trasnport of bee hives for pollination, etc., are all going to end up playing a part with several possible senarioes resulting in CCD type decline.  It is all going to go back to BMP and less migratory beekeeping.  More regional and less national, West coast bees to California, east coast bees to Florida, etc.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
rdy-b
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2008, 09:09:26 PM »

heres more about what is going on with CCD  http://www.vanishingbees.com/blog/      cool  RDY-B
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Trot
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2008, 01:48:09 PM »


Information! Best regards, Harald Singer.
  1.13.2008 12:13PM4 Reasons Pesticides are Bad for BeesBeekeepers: Poisons
May Not Cause Colony Collapse Disorder, But They Contribute  By Kim
Flottum The
Beekeeper reports from the first ever National Beekeeping Conference:Now,
what everyone has been waiting for ... beekeepers telling beekeepers about their
personal experiences with Colony collapse Disorder (CCD). But wait! There’s
more here than just a mystery. There’s pesticides aplenty here, and even if
they
aren’t the CCD curse, they are killing bees faster than beekeepers can make
them.
Chemical Companies Approve Their Own Pesticides David Mendes, a
Massachusetts/Florida beekeeper with 7,000 colonies, talked about pesticides in
the
environments his bees must visit when pollinating crops and how these chemicals
may
be contributing to his problems ... and his problems are significant this year,
as they were last year. His first comment was that pesticides aren’t tested
by the EPA, nope. Pesticides are tested by the Chemical companies that make
them, and then the EPA approves them for use, or not. Any guesses on how those
results come out?He talked about not only the financial but emotional stress
loosing 60 – 80% of your bees has on beekeepers ... anything more than 50% in
a
year and it gets real, real hard to recover. Two years in a row and you could
be looking for a job as a greeter at Wal-Mart. What’s different now, he asks
... And why me?
"Big Ag," with Chemical Henchmen, Control the USDA David Hackenburg, the
first to report Colony Collapse Disorder (but not the first to watch it run
through his hives, certainly), first told about the 2,000 or so colonies he had
moved to Florida last week. This week, 80% were gone ... again. Gone with the
same
symptoms of CCD he saw in his bees last year. He quoted Jerry Hayes, the
State Apiary Inspector from Florida (where CCD is common) who said that “
beekeeping was the ugly step-child of American agriculture”. How so? The
government has
made lots of promises about studying and fixing the CCD problem so far,
Hackenburg said ... but so far not much has happened. He said he hasn’t been
too
happy with Australian bees so far – not saying anything about their
implication
in CCD (one disputed study suggested an Australian virus is connected to hives
affected by CCD). He also mentioned pesticides, specifically Imadacloprid
(banned in France, but not here), and how it was used everywhere, by everybody.
But he went on, and I quote ... ”Big Ag has control of the USDA from the
Secretary right on down to almost the lowest guys on the totem pole.” What to
do?
Get a hold of your congress folks and get them to take some action ... get the
money out, get control of the chemicals.
"Stacking" Makes Poisoning More Potent Dave Ellingson, another commercial
beekeeper and beeswax processor talked about doing everything the way he had
been
doing things ... and nothing was working. It used to be, when a colony dies,
you air it out and reuse it. Now, that new colony will die too. His pesticide
comment was that farmers are now "stacking" pesticides. That is, they are
combining insecticides, herbicides and fungicides in a single trip across the
field instead of taking three separate trips. The problem? When combined, these
chemical blends become a thousand times more toxic than when used alone. A
thousand times more toxic. Imagine.
Fungicides: The Breakfast of Champions? Gene Brandi, a commercial beekeeper
with 2,000 colonies, talked about one specific pesticide problem: Spraying
fungicides on blooming plants. Generally these compounds aren’t harmful to
honey
bees ... adult honey bees that is, which is all the EPA makes the chemical
companies consider when they test new pesticides (remember who does the tests,
and
who approves the results). Meanwhile, these non-adult-harming compounds that
are brought back to the hive are being fed to baby bees. Would you feed
fungicides to your babies? No? Neither would I. But we are routinely letting
honey
bees do just that. These chemicals come back to hives on the pollen the bees
collect, then store, then feed to their children. Yummmm.Pesticides aren’t the
cause of Colony Collapse Disorder. Beekeepers and scientists know this. But the
stress that constant exposure to pesticides exerts on the honey bee
population, and the strain this stress puts on a honey bee’s immune system is
just one
of many links in the CCD chain. The problem is obvious. The solution is too.
http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/colony-collapse-disor
der-66011301







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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2008, 06:32:29 PM »

i have some issues with stuff that comes from Flottum.  he's gone off on enough political and environmental tangents that i stopped reading. 

since we know that there have been die offs in the past, long before gmo's, and that there are places experiencing this that do not allow gmo's, i would put this at the bottom of the list of possible contributing factors.  not to say it has no impact, but probably not the cause.  poor nutrition and stress allowing for the development of diseases...old or new, seems a much more likely cause.  if pollination hives are breeding grounds for disease, then they would surly be able to spread that disease to our backyard hives.  any stress in our hives could allow the disease to flourish.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
doak
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2008, 08:50:17 PM »

I agree,Kathyp.
With all the diseases and pest all ready working in the hive, the least little "NEW"
thing that comes up, the Bees have to adjust.
Like I said in another post, no farming around here. I don't move my bees. So what gives.
   I know 5 out of the 7 hives I lost last year was due to something new.
WHAT?
No robbing of left over honey, no wax moth's.
But I have noticed something else. Most of my losses are coming from newly re queened colonies.
The colonies I have that came out of the wild and get queens fair much better.
That's where I'm going.

I am going to raise some queens from these bees.
 ;)doak
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2008, 10:35:52 PM »

>i have some issues with stuff that comes from Flottum.  he's gone off on enough political and environmental tangents that i stopped reading.

I think he's seen the light.  The magazine used to just push the chemical solutions.  Now he's seeing a bigger picture.
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Michael Bush
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kathyp
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2008, 01:04:33 AM »

he has expressed other opinions about stuff.  opinions are fine.  radical ravings are not. at least not radical ravings that have nothing to do with the subject of the magazine in which you are raving.  makes me wonder what he got to sniffing in his older age.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2008, 01:04:20 AM »

<another study crows and raccoons would not eat GMO corn.>

    I saw this last fall in our church parking lot where someone stopped to double check their load and spilled a bunch of corn.  They left and I figured what the hey I'll put some in a feeder for the tree rats and some for the birds.  None was touched.  The corn in the parking lot was run over and ground down and washed away in the rains.  What was in my yard rotted and washed away.  Now whether it was GMO corn, I do not know, but I have never seen critters not devour free corn. 
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Everyone said it couldn't be done. But he with a chuckle replied, "I won't be one to say it is so, until I give it a try."  So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin.  If he had a worry he hid it and he started to sing as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it.  (unknown)
beesbeesbees
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2008, 12:02:14 PM »

I found an article on CCD from 20 years ago.  It's long.  He traces the history of his dealings with mass hive loss.

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/sadandbad.htm
"No workable solutions are forthcoming from the speculators and much time and money is wasted on popular cures."

"The results of so many BAD, SAD bees the last few years has been a lot of SAD beekeepers looking for a quick fix to a very complex problem, KEEPING HEALTHY productive bees. I do not think the answer will necessarily be through modern chemistry, and I am certain it will not be by government decree, that: 'ALL BEES WILL BE HEALTHY OR DEAD.'"


I also liked what Purvis Brothers site has to say on the topic.  (Again indicating that this is nothing new)

http://web.mac.com/dannpurvis/iWeb/Purvis%20Brothers%20Bees.com/Letter%20to%20the%20editor%20American%20Bee%20Journal%20March%202007.html

and

http://web.mac.com/dannpurvis/iWeb/Purvis%20Brothers%20Bees.com/Response%20to%20Letter%20to%20the%20editor%20of%20American%20Bee%20Journal%20March%202007.html

In summary,
-Propagate hives that survived the whatever. 
-Work within our own community to breed better bees.
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beeluver
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2008, 10:28:04 AM »

I saw this interesting documentory called " the world according to monsanto" its on google video...  Very interesting vid..
I notice that organic beekeepers are not being affected... and hives that are being fed GMO corn syrup and taken to gmo crops are the ones suffering(the large commercials ops) back in 1990 32 people died eating monsanto products..
and 1000 people were seriously injured\sick this is the company that's behind most GMO products today...now allot the characteristics of the bee's suffering from CCD are expereincing what some lab rats expereinced in a lab test a little while back(stomach lining gone and multiple viruses and parasites indicating there immune system and gut has been compromised.)  Is organic beekeeping the way to go to avoid this horrible fate? it seems that way as again you can ask around organic beekeepers are not being affected.. fruit Bats are now suffering from a form of CCD as well... they are leaving there caves during winter time and dying from the SAME characterisitcs as the Bees and the lab rats... go figure.. Monsanto has lots of $$ and I am sure they will fund research that will be impartial and conflicting.. we need to use common sense, look at the history of the company, and in the end your gut feeling as to what the hell is going on. and make changes to what you feed and give your bees.. and if possible avoid GMO crops or raise prices on GMO due to the added risk of losing hives due to GMO.. I know that's probaly impossible right now.. but as more research comes out to support that hypothesis.. you will have the ammunition to do so. 
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Trot
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2008, 07:12:06 PM »

Neonics responsible for hive loss in Italy:

http://www.mieliditalia.it/n_grande_fuga.htm

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Trot
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2008, 07:21:40 PM »


Fast translation of the above Italian content:


April 3, 2008) few days ago they began sowing maize in the Po Valley.
After the first reports of poisoning, last week, below is the upgrade to Thursday April 3:

Province, Town and afected # of hives:

Milan Robecco sul Naviglio 50
Milan-Nerviano Parabiago 80
Cremona Cremona (4) 45
Cremona Casalmaggiore 30
Cremona Soresina 15
Cremona Cream (3) 150
Mantua Dosolo 15
Mantua Marcaria 45
Mantua Castellucchio 20
Mantua Guidizzolo 50
Mantua Volta Mantovana 15
Mantua Goito 15
Mantua Borgoforte 25
Mantua Ceresara 38
Brescia Capodimonte and Rezzato 100
Brescia 18 Rovato
Brescia 20 Ospitaletto
Brescia 21 Pralboino
Brescia Gottolengo 9
Brescia Castenedolo (2) 28
Brescia 25 Calcinato
Brescia Bagnolo, Gussago, Poncarale, Castegnato 150
Brescia 10 Chiari
Updated April 3
Milan Ozzero 30
Milan Cisliano 150
Milan Abbiategrasso 36
Milan Corbetta 50
Milan Morimondo 40
Bergamo Ciserano 33
Bergamo Grassobbio 5
Bergamo Misano Gera d'Adda 5
Brescia 4 Rodengo Saiano
Brescia Camignano 12
Lodi Zeal Good Persian 180
Cremona Cremona (3) 23
Cremona Casalmaggiore (3) 39
Cremona Castelleone 4
Mantua Volta Mantovana 80
Varese Bienate 60
Varese Comerio 15

They also reported poisoning in several other apiaries of professional beekeepers in the affected lodigiano - with removal by veterinarians of official samples by the local ASL; Incoming are also reports from the countryside surrounding the city of Varese.

The hives in the above table refer to the "official" reports, sent to the SLA Services Veterinarians territorially.
For each officially reported incidence of "poisoning bee-field experience"
it is said that records show that there are at least ten other incidents not declared.
Almost all the "bee-death" occurred in close and with obvious connection with the use of seed corn with neonicotenoidi tanned and distributed with air seeders. In some cases the responsibility seems to be attributed to herbicides.
In several cases the samples Veterinarians have collected, "official" death of bee is attributed to molecules responsible dell'apicidio.
We must report, unfortunately, that in some cases, by the Veterinary Services of ASL, there is serious lack of cooperation, because faced with such a serious and widespread phenomenon - their main concern seems to be: "Who will pay for the analysis?".
We denounce this shameful attitude that reveals all the obtuseness of those who precede the direct damage suffered by companies apistiche and that, even more serious blow could be felt by all of us, born from, "the financial unsustainability" is a proposal which marks each test at cost - Euro 51 - 65 (CRA prices www.inapicoltura.org-API).
In the absence of adequate safeguards many beekeepers have already abandoned the area with their hives. Other bee operators in the areas at risk - plus many others, are now preparing to do so.

And how useful will it be for someone in those areas - without a Po Valley bees?

The next bulletin, with updates on new poisoning, will be issued, I fear - within one week.

Apilombardia
Armando Lazzati
March 28, 2008
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mick
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2008, 05:31:46 AM »

I reckon its all down to Varoa. They have searched for everything else. Sometimes the answer is too simple for some Scientists to believe.
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Vetch
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2008, 06:16:26 AM »

I reckon its all down to Varoa. They have searched for everything else. Sometimes the answer is too simple for some Scientists to believe.

Could be, but I don't think they have investigated every other possibility. When the AIDS virus first appeared and humans started dieing, it took a while for thousands of scientists and doctors to figure it out. For bees, there are few dollars and few scientists.
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sharilyn
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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2008, 04:20:26 PM »

I noticed that no one has mentioned that on May 15th, 2008, Germany suspended the licensing of seed-coating and use of clothianidin and seed-coating with imidacloprid which are two of the most highly toxic neonicotinoids to honey bees. 60% fo the bees died in one week in Southwestern Germany and the government research found 90% of the dead bees had clothianidin in their bodies. This same pattern of bee dieoff occurred in Alsace, France, Italy, Switzerland and other countries where corn was seed coated and then more clothianidin was sprayed on the crop. This is stunning news for beekeepers and dramatic swift action for German officials because Bayer Crop Science which owns all rights to neonicotinoids and fipronil is located in Germany.
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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2008, 04:37:36 PM »

I forgot to mention in my last post that in France in 1999, as you know, Gaucho, one neonicotinoid product, was banned for use on sunflower crops and only for use on sunflower crops. It continued to be used on many other crops. The French beekeepers called the disappearance of their bees, "Mad Bee Disease" which occurred first and only with the bees that foraged on the initial crops that had seeds coated with Gaucho. Yes, seeds and not massive spraying! Penn State entomologists renamed the phenomena, colony collapse disorder. Although in Europe it has been proven that neonicotinoids are responsible for massive bee losses, I have been unable to find adequate research here in the USA proving the same result. You might check on my Youtube video disappearance of the bees, if you want to know more about the dangers of neonicotinoids to honey bees and all pollinators.
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