Dadant & Small Cell

[DayValleyDahlias]

Just rec'd Dadant's catalog, was reading about the 5.1 &4.9 foundation.  Why do they recommend it for experienced beeks only?

[Shawn]

Thats what I have been looking at also.  I have read the bees have to be slowly regressed back to the "origianl" size, small cell. From things read you hvae to switch individaul frames out a few at a time. It would be nice if it was all one size and then sellers and buuyers are all on the same field. Im trying to go all small cell but I dont know if I will  be able to afford it for my  first two hives.

[Jerrymac]

Actually you should dump all the bees onto all small cell foundation. And do it again after the first batch has emerged from what the bees made with the first batch. The Large cell bees won't build the small cell foundation correctly.

But now there is HSC "Honey Super cell" . Fill one brood box full of that and instant regression. But you can't mix it with other foundations.

[steveouk]

I've got the small sell from Dadant and Bushy mountain. Bushy sell it with wire crimps. I've decided to place 2-4 frames of the full crimped small cell frames on either side of my bees when i get them and then fill the rest out with starter strips.

[Understudy]

Just rec'd Dadant's catalog, was reading about the 5.1 &4.9 foundation.  Why do they recommend it for experienced beeks only?

Because if they recommended it for the rest of us. What would they do with all that leftover large cell stock that was sitting on their shelves. 

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[TwT]

Just rec'd Dadant's catalog, was reading about the 5.1 &4.9 foundation.  Why do they recommend it for experienced beeks only?

Because if they recommended it for the rest of us. What would they do with all that leftover large cell stock that was sitting on their shelves. 

Sincerely,
Brendhan

sale it to me at a cheaper price , remember most beekeepers out there dont use small cell, only a small but growing percent do use small cell, when the small cell thing got started the biggest thing was regressing bee's to small cell so dadant recommends that when tring to regress use the 5.1 first then regress to 4.9 when your bee's are drawning out 5.1 fine, regression was said to take 2-4 years to get bee's on small cell and alot of changing out foundation.

[Robo]

Why do they recommend it for experienced beeks only?

Because they got tired of inexperienced beekeepers complaining about the troubles they had getting the bees to draw it out correctly.   It is not as simple as just dumping large cell bees on it and forgetting about it.  There is a regression required as stated already.  Most new beekeepers (perhaps with the exception being those that come to beemaster forums) are unaware of how to regress and end up with a mess.

[DayValleyDahlias]

Oh I see...ah ha!

[TwT]

Why do they recommend it for experienced beeks only?

Because they got tired of inexperienced beekeepers complaining about the troubles they had getting the bees to draw it out correctly.   It is not as simple as just dumping large cell bees on it and forgetting about it.  There is a regression required as stated already.  Most new beekeepers (perhaps with the exception being those that come to beemaster forums) are unaware of how to regress and end up with a mess.

its not as simple as most people talk about, some get lucky but very very few, the rest have to take time to get bee's regressed, that's like people using starter strips, I have used a 100 but none drew smaller that 5.2, most drew 5.3-5.35 on average, that's some at 5.2 and some at 5.4, that's the smallest I had with 25 hives. besides with starter strip I didn't like them at all, some frames took 2 years before they attach the sides and bottom, I only use starter strips for cut comb now when I am out of cut comb foundation, all foundation for me..... I have tried small cell foundation and my bee's drew it out better than I thought they would, but my bee's were doing fine without it before I bought it so I just went back to buying regular Kelly foundation, bee's still doing fine and I don't have to pay I higher price for that small cell foundation..... that just my 2 pennies worth!!!!

[BenC]

Because they got tired of inexperienced beekeepers complaining about the troubles they had getting the bees to draw it out correctly.   It is not as simple as just dumping large cell bees on it and forgetting about it. 

Yup, makes for a good disclaimer.  If it didn't work for you then sorry no refunds, "you're not experienced enough"

As far as the recommendation for 5.1 first, The only thing I saw when I read Dadant's recommendation was someone trying to sell me foundation twice, and at a higher price too.  I just got the 4.9 and cut it diagonally, went twice as far.  Some frames were drawn out and measured "small" on the first round, while several had large patches of drone cells and various worker sizes.  I've tried narrow starter strips a few times before and met with undesirable results (as far as getting the small cells and straight comb) every time, but after reading comments of success from so many on this forum and factoring in my frugality I guess I'll give it another shot this spring.

[dpence]

Why do they recommend it for experienced beeks only?

(perhaps with the exception being those that come to beemaster forums)

Thats why we be here...indeed good information.  I had been hearing both sides and wondered how the experienced guys managed it.  Thanks.

[annette]

So far the starter strips I have been introducing into the hive have produced beautiful, straight comb. I just this past weekend, introduced another 2 frames into the brood chamber. Hopefully, they will draw these out nicely as well. I will let you all know. This is a longer way to regress them, but I am happy giving them the empty foundation as I feel they are drawing out whatever they want.  Slowly, slowly it will work out.

Annette

[bassman1977]

So far the starter strips I have been introducing into the hive have produced beautiful, straight comb. I just this past weekend, introduced another 2 frames into the brood chamber. Hopefully, they will draw these out nicely as well. I will let you all know. This is a longer way to regress them, but I am happy giving them the empty foundation as I feel they are drawing out whatever they want.  Slowly, slowly it will work out.

See you're lucky.  When I did starter strips, they made a mess out of it.  Dale, another member of this forum, who lives an hour from me said the same thing happened to him.  He recommended starting out on Pierco first and then going with either starter strips.  I did, and it worked better.  Now instead of doing starter strips, I just have them on 4.9mm foundation which I didn't have to change out at all once they got off the Pierco.

This gets me thinking too... I think maybe instead of using all 4.9mm foundation in the brood chamber and honey supers, I could use starter strips after they have been regressed, then use the 4.9mm foundation in the honey supers only, since they would hold up better in the extractor.  I wouldn't have to spend as much on foundation that way.   

[Michael Bush]

In my opinion Dadant is giving poor advice.  I read that when I first found small cell foundation and had no idea what I, as an experienced beekeeper, was supposed to know about small cell that an inexperienced beekeeper wouldn't.  After a lot of research I concluded there wasn't anything I would know.  But I think it's the whole regression issue that they are referring to.  Sometimes they will draw 4.9mm right off.  Sometimes they won't.  It seems to be some combination of genetics and the size they were raised on.  Since there is a lot of Pierco out there and a lot of Mann Lake's PF100s out there, bees are often already partially if not totally regressed.

[Understudy]

I will say this when I did one of my first regressions. The cells for the first couple of generations looked like drone cells. You would have thought my hives were queenless. They weren't but is a bit freaky seeing all those bubbled up cells.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[bassman1977]

I will say this when I did one of my first regressions. The cells for the first couple of generations looked like drone cells.

Yes, exactly my problem.  Unfortunately I was doing all this during an inspection year.  The inspector looked at me like I was from another planet.  I'm looking forward to him seeing the progress I've made this year.

[Brian D. Bray]

Yeah, it takes a few years to do a complete regression.  3-5 is what I would guess, I'm into my 2nd year of it and still getting mixed results.  The good thing is that the center frames in the brood chamber are the most consistent so I'm pulling the odd stuff and cutting it out and putting it back into the brood chambers. 

[MarkF]

Why go with small cell over large cell? I know with small cell you end up with more bees in the hive but what advantage do small bees have over large bees? Do hives with small cells gather more honey than hives with large cells?
Or is this all about mites?

[DayValleyDahlias]

MarkF,

It is about mites.

Derned mites!

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm