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Author Topic: 10 frames vs. 9  (Read 1443 times)

Offline Hayesbo

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10 frames vs. 9
« on: January 18, 2008, 01:44:14 PM »
The four hives that I bought from a beek all had spacers to make them all 9 frame hives instead of 10.

I understand why 9 frames are better than 10 on supers, and I agree in principle and practice. Much easier to uncap when spaced to 9 frames.

My question deals with Brood. The deep brood bodies also were spaced to nine frames. Is there any benefit for having deeper cells for brood?

I understand that I would need to give them foundation spaced at 10 frames to keep the burr comb down and then once it is drawn go to 9 on the supers. I just haven't seen anything on spacing for nine frames on brood.

Any answers  or suggestions would be appreciated.

If the answer is clearly on Michaels website, I appologize that I haven't read it from front to back yet. It is a new year's resolution that I haven't finished yet. :-D :-D  (You are the greatest asset to the new beek, Mr. Bush)

Thanks,  Steve

Offline NWIN Beekeeper

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2008, 02:23:19 PM »
Your frames were spaced that way  because you bought from a beekeeper that understands his/her bees.

When your bees traverse the frame from box to box it is important that the frames line up.
Otherwise your bees have to chain together, build burr comb, or go to the walls to climb up.
This wastes time and energy.

 H H H H H H H H H
H H H H H'H H H H H

When bees climb from the brood chamber (10 Frames) to the bottom of the honey supers (9 frames to a box) they hit the dead center of the above bottom bar and have to climb around the bottom to get to the comb.

If both are spaced 9, it is an easy transition from box to box.

This is especially important in colder climates where there is limited day time heat in which to operate.
Any wasted time is too much in these cold circumstances.

This is the same principle that needs to be recognized during a flow with queen excluders.
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Offline KONASDAD

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2008, 02:38:52 PM »
If you are just starting out and your frames are undrawn, you should start w/ 10 or even 11 so they draw it out properly. After that , use any configuration you like, noting the above info as for being consistant.
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Offline Scadsobees

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2008, 04:10:42 PM »
Much of the time it is an issue of how far the bees draw out the honey arc at the top.  With 10 frames it is difficult sometime to get the frames out without squishing bees, but with 9 frames it is easier.  But with experience 10 frames works ok.

But with 10 frames that is an extra frame for brood, or 2 extra for 2 deeps, and that equates to what...6000 potential extra bees?

I don't scrape too much bridge comb unless it gets overwhelming, so they don't have to re-comb between boxes.  Furthermore, they build bridges with their bodies so can get across those gaps if there are any.

If the bees are at 9 frames, it will be somewhat difficult to go back to 10 because of the honey storage comb, in order to do so you will need to cut them all thinner with a knife, not fun if there are bees on there. 

So just do what works for you, it works either way.

Rick
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2008, 07:40:24 PM »
>Is there any benefit for having deeper cells for brood?

You cannot get deeper cells for brood.  They will not build them deeper.  They will, however, build the honey so that it protrudes if you have 9 frames in a ten frame brood box.  I much prefer 11 frames in a 10 frame brood box.  More brood, less nosema, flatter combs and smaller cells.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#framespacing
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Offline Understudy

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 08:47:20 PM »
Since I tend to use permacomb. I use 9 across the board.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Offline Hayesbo

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 08:44:21 AM »
Thanks. Good answers everyone. It didn't even occur to me that they would need to have the same number of frames throughout the hive aligning the frames. I missed that one in my logic.

Michael, do you find that you can go from 11 brood to 9 super frames because you have your openings on top or is that even a factor?  How much do you shave off the frame edges to make them fit 11 to a box?

Can I do 11 frames in a shallow super that I have designated as for comb honey? I intend to put a chunk of comb honey in the quarts that I sell. My customers really almost demand it in there for them to believe it is natural 100% honey.

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2008, 09:40:39 AM »
If you have two boxes with different numbers of comb, they will build bridge comb, but also form little bridges with their bodies so they don't have too much trouble going from 11 or 10 frames to 9.  Maybe not optimal, but it doesn't slow them down any. 

They are used to taking the long way...that is how they have to get from one side of a comb to the other...

Rick
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: 10 frames vs. 9
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 02:29:25 PM »
>Thanks. Good answers everyone. It didn't even occur to me that they would need to have the same number of frames throughout the hive aligning the frames. I missed that one in my logic.

I've never seen any difference.  They get around fine.

>Michael, do you find that you can go from 11 brood to 9 super frames because you have your openings on top or is that even a factor?

No, it's not a factor.

> How much do you shave off the frame edges to make them fit 11 to a box?

1/16" off each side (1/8" total).

>Can I do 11 frames in a shallow super that I have designated as for comb honey?

Sure.  You'll get thinner comb.

> I intend to put a chunk of comb honey in the quarts that I sell. My customers really almost demand it in there for them to believe it is natural 100% honey.

Chunk honey has always sold well for me.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen