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Author Topic: Wrong kind of yeast??  (Read 1730 times)
Sir Stungalot
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« on: January 15, 2008, 11:09:12 PM »

My Dad, who is a great help to me, set out to gather the ingredients to make fake pollen patties. He could not find brewers yeast so instead, he bought a large (expensive) amount of regular active yeast...the kind for bread baking. I dunno..... if I use this, will I end up with giant, puffy fake pollen balloons?!? I have this visual of the time I tried to use my bread machine...ugh.
I have not, in the past, even bothered to feed pollen subs. but this year, I want to build up fast for early splits.
This recipe is simple...calls for pretty much only soy flour, yeast and sugar as the primary stuff to make this.
So the question (s)
1- wrong yeast?
2- is a recipe this simple even worthwhile?

I do not want to waste my Dads $ by opening this yeast  if it is not even the right stuff......
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rdy-b
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 11:43:38 PM »

The only active yeast that i know of that you can make pollen sub with is TORULA -I dont think they make bread with it -RDY-B
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 06:17:33 AM »

It's not really the right stuff.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 06:26:27 AM »

It may not be exactly the right kind of yeast, but is there really a wrong kind of yeast. 

I think the brewers yeast is one of the cheapest yeasts on the market. 

We have to ask ourselves what is the benefit of actually adding the yeast to the mix for pollen patties.  Well it serves two functions that I know of

1.  It adds alot of vitamin "B"
2.  It adds protein

What else is there?
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Cindi
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 10:21:48 AM »

SirStungalot.  Save that money, do not open the can of bakers yeast.  Return it if you can.  I would not use this type of yeast to make pollen patties for the bees.  No.

Brewers yeast is an entirely different type of yeast, it is for alcohol the other is for baking.  Two yeasts, but different in many ways.

I have revamped my pollen patties to a new recipe.  The old recipe I got from the Inspector for bees in our area.  I revamped the original recipe and now have reduced the brewers yeast and increased the pollen.  When I make the pollen patties this time I am going to use even less brewers yeast.  I have some brewers yeast left over from a bag that I had purchased, that would be the only reason now that I would use it.  My Asian instructor has told me to omit the brewers yeast altogether, just substitute more pollen for it.  Much better for the bees, it is their natural food.  I think that the brewers yeast acts to hold the patty together, but I am in experiment mode all the time, so I am going to reduce the brewers yeast even further and see how the patties hold up. 

This is the recipe I have, revamped:

Pollen Patty

7 cups brewers yeast
7 cups sugar
3 cups water
6 cups pollen

Makes (10), 500 gram (just over a pound) patties

I always mix one half the water to the pollen prior to mixing everything together.  Pollen does not readily mix in with sugar water, so dissolving the pollen in water is pretty important.  Good luck and have the best of days.  Cindi
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limyw
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 10:42:25 AM »

What about just add in raw honey since it contains yeast as well. Pollen that stores in cell also added with honey by bees
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 10:51:32 AM »

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=12712.0

this one uses bakers yeast.....
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 11:38:07 AM »

Ok.  I had to take a look at yeasts.  So here is an exerpt from wikipedia.

Saccharomyces cerevisiae is a species of budding yeast. It is perhaps the most useful yeast owing to its use since ancient times in baking and brewing.

So we can now assume that whether it be used for brewing or baking, yeast will produce CO2 (used in baking, and carbonating beer) and it will also produce alcohol.  Which consequently will be cooked off during the entire baking process.

So Brewers yeast is simply dead Saccharomyces cerevisiae.  This means it will not start fermenting the pollen patties.  Of course you can accomplish this by simply freezing your bakers yeast.  That will do a sufficient job at killing the yeast.  You could also toss it in the oven on 150 for about 15 minutes.  That will also kill off your yeast.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 08:52:12 PM »

lets look a little closer -brewers yeast is not really yeast after all -it is a byproduct -from brewing with a live yeast-that is no longer viable after brewing -it has nutritional value -I think if you use live yeast there would be some kind of self life before it started to ferment -if the bees eat it and store it they would add some enzymes to it -like they do with there beebread so it dosent spoil -but it just seams counter productive to me -RDY-B
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NWIN Beekeeper
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2008, 04:06:45 AM »

[What about just add in raw honey since it contains yeast as well. Pollen that stores in cell also added with honey by bees...]

I try to avoid feeding honey in pollen patties.
This is largely due to the fact that I likely feeding more then the original colony the honey came from.
While the 'donor' colony may not have shown signs of disease, the receiving colony may have more stress and so the disease may surface.
I try to keep all feedings to be table sugar, that assures I am not spreading disease by feeding.

This does prevent all disease, as robbing or any stress at anytime can cause problems.
------------------
As for yeasts...

I would not use bakers yeast, I would find a local source of brewers yeast, as your money will go much farther. There are subtle differences even in brewers yeasts, but none to be concerned about.
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Honey for yeasts

While honey does have some yeasts and active bacteria in it, it not on a usable scale for the quantity of pollen supplement you are likely making. Keep in mind that these bacteria are added to pollen in a hive where it is 90+ degrees for many days.  Unless you plan to incubate your pollen patties, you are not going to get the same results. There are other conditions that must be met for the bacteria to work in the way you are thinking. This is not a reasonable option. Also consider hive-to-hive disease spread.
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A concern-

Big
You may feed the most expensive yeasts with the highest protein, but unless it balances with other aspects of the diet, it is just getting crapped out the other end. Bees do not have an overly diverse digestive system. In order to get nutrition from proteins, there must be adequate amino acids.  This is an involved topic for another thread altogether.  Amino acids can come from a variety of sources, and some argue what is needed, what is used, where they come from, what is priced for your scale of operation, etc. etc. etc. This is a topic of argument that has been raging since before some of us were born.

Mild
Some current sources of research are suggesting the adding of lipids (fats).  These fats have shown to reduce some infections like nosema.  It has also shown that it leads to an improved immune system (however slight the honeybee has of one). Some have said increased fat bodies will also induce more foraging for pollen (when available) and in turn, more pollen means more food for brood, and more brood equals a larger population (and likely a healthier hive). In light of this information, some recipes are including canola oil.  This oil also helps with the handling of the patties (less sticky).
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Cindi
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2008, 09:26:00 AM »

NWIN Beekeeper.  I like your posts.  They are very informative and have much credibility.  I believe you have a pretty good handle on what information you are speaking to us about, that is good.

About the canola oil added to the pollen patties.  Probably good.  But if some people add it to simply help to keep the hands less mucky when handling the pollen mucky mess, than I have another more simple solution that works well for me.

When I am making the pollen into a round lump so that it distributes quite evenly (like when making meatballs, yum, yum, now I want meatballs for dinner, sweet and sour to be exact, ooops, off topic here), I keep my hands moistened ever so slightly.  This allows for non-stick and does not impact the texture of the mucky (oops, almost said meatball) pollen patty (got meatballs on the brain now).

Pollen patties are one of the muckiest and stickiest things I have ever laid my hands on, they are so sticky, and I can't wait until I place that pollen ball on the wax paper and out of my hands.  Eeeks......why do I ramble as such,  Wink Smiley shocked  Have the most wonderful day.  Cindi
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NWIN Beekeeper
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2008, 01:11:51 PM »

[NWIN Beekeeper.  I like your posts.  They are very informative and have much credibility.  I believe you have a pretty good handle on what information you are speaking to us about, that is good.]

Thank you for the kind words!
You won't find too much fluff from me.
Either I am doing it, did it, or I have a few sources that I trust as well as myself.
Otherwise I leave the topic alone.

With enough curiosity, eventually you try just about everything and it fails about 80% of the time.
But with that much failure, when the 20% goes right - it feels easy like second nature.
That progress is very fun to share.

[I can't wait until I place that pollen ball on the wax paper and out of my hands. ]

Oh come on Cindi, only rookies need to touch the pollen mix!  rolleyes
Set yourself up a scale and small cookie sheet with the wax paper.
Then with a big wooden spoon, flick a pound or two on and fold over the paper.
Press it out flat and freeze with the paper (you are leaving the paper on right? Keeps it moist)
Pull them out when you need them and strike your hive tool across the surface a few times.

If you're really slick, your dog can clean out the mixing bowl and beaters.
(except, I don't want any birthday cakes from your house after you do this!!)  tongue
The bowl and beaters will be clean and ready for the next batch.
Besides a dogs mouth is cleaner than a humans anyhow (except, I don't lick myself, much).
OK, I am joking, you don't want to give your dog the runs.

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Sir Stungalot
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2008, 12:12:04 AM »

Well everybody....thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question. I have a much more clear understanding of the concept of yeast now! My primary problem was I did not know exactly what Brewers yeast was!
Cindi...thanks for the recipe. I think I will give that one a shot. Now I just gotta' find some pollen.  Dang, it sure would be easy if WalMart had a beekeeping isle...
Thanks again all-
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Cindi
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 10:35:07 AM »

NWINBeekeeper.  Hee, hee, haa, haa.  When I grasp the pollen blob and roll it in my hands, I know pretty much how much this patty weighs, it is about one pound.  So I don't need a scale, that saves one step.  I roll the patty before I put it on the wax paper, so when I take that rolling pin and push the pollen patty flat (of course there is wax paper on the bottom and the top, and yes, I leave this paper on) the pollen patty is almost perfectly symetrical.  It bodes well for placing on the top of the frames and the inner cover fits over top of it nicely, without being too far raised up off the frame tops.

I don't use my mixer for making the muck.  I have a large white pale, and great big drill that has a drywall mud mixing flapper thing that mixes it all up for me.  This works great, and the only hard thing that I experience is trying to hold the pail with my knees so it doesn't spin around, that is a hoot and a hollar to see.

So, you see, my hands get mucky, but then that is OK, moistened hands make the job much easier,  Smiley Smiley Smiley  Have the best of a wonderful day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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