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Author Topic: goodbye Spain/Germany/France/Slovenia....welcome federal Europe  (Read 4842 times)
qa33010
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2008, 02:02:32 AM »

   kathyp,  In a way that's how the feds got more control of the states.  Economic sanctions, AFTER all that good money was filtered into each state, with no strings attached, there suddenly became a need for oversight to make sure the money was spent correctly as well as qualifiers to keep receiving the loot.  Thus the NEA as well as new branches of the federal government grew and ate more and soon any surplus was eaten and that minute amount of income tax Teddy Roosevelt started was increased.  Then in the mid sixties Social Security money, which was seperate, was combined into the general fund, for our good under the 'Great Society'.  By this time the states had their hands out because suddenly the people, who previously were taking care of our own families, let the state do it.  During this time minimum wage was established and that monster also fed on itself increasing cost all around and requiring more higher and higher minimum wage.  9/11 brought Homeland Security that if I remember correctly was supposed to be a coordinating body ONLY (but I may be wrong).  Schools are evaluated by tests that do not even test the readiness of high school graduates for college.  Instead colleges are conducting remedial courses so students can take college courses and know what they are doing.  Hence the dumbing down to better get folks to be more like cattle and sheep.


    Granted we didn't have the best system in the world then, but we sure have made it worse and lost more of our own autonomy in the process.  Some one now tells me it's for the children or those that can't defend themselves I immediately challenge them to explain and prove it.  Then prove how it will make the grade without increasing the taxes that are already mispent on wasteful programs or pet projects.  I am a firm believer in the hand-up not hand-out theory.  I probably trod on some toes but I do support any one who is willing to resist anyone or anything that tries to take their freedom or autonomy away from them, including by hook or crook, without them having a say.  Sorry I got on the soap box again...I'll fall of now.
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Everyone said it couldn't be done. But he with a chuckle replied, "I won't be one to say it is so, until I give it a try."  So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin.  If he had a worry he hid it and he started to sing as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it.  (unknown)
kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2008, 04:05:27 PM »

we can go back farther.  while most would agree that ending slavery, and expanding voting rights, were good ideas, should they have been done by the feds?  yes, we did amend the constitution but states were already making moves on both.  same with labor laws and minimum wage,school desegregation....  people look back on these things as good moves, but every one of them eroded the powers of the states. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
qa33010
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2008, 05:33:28 PM »

  I'ld forgotten about that.  Thanks.
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Everyone said it couldn't be done. But he with a chuckle replied, "I won't be one to say it is so, until I give it a try."  So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin.  If he had a worry he hid it and he started to sing as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it.  (unknown)
wayne
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2008, 03:12:49 PM »

   If any group has a history of resistance it is Ireland, God help them.
   IF the nations of the world are thinned down to just a handful of unions, the UN becomes more powerful as a place to broker deals.
   These issues and others were what drove the survivalist movement to form.  And it makes one wonder. If some catastrophy was to threaten the world economy, and the stability of civilization, should we let nature take its course?  Would it really be a mercy to keep things afloat, or let civilization die and maybe reform at some later day?
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I was born about 100 years too early, or to late.
Mici
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2008, 06:08:56 AM »

i don't know how much you are interested but...
today it's 28th, tomorrow they're supposed to ratificate the treaty.
tomorrow our action starts! the goal? a public referendum: "for independent Slovenia"
first, we'll have to get 2500 signatures in one week just to acknowledge it, then 40.000 in a month!

and what's the most scary thing? President, prime minister, 90 members of senate, the guardian of human rights, not one of them responded in ANY MANNER whatsoever!! and this, this is some scary sh**. NOT ONE media wrote a word about it, although, they got the same letters as ministers and the president!
Democracy? who are they kidding?

all the media and politics's a stage, and all ministers are merely players. what frightens me the most is, we are 90% sure about who the director is, and that is the most frightening fact!
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kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2008, 11:09:09 AM »

mici, i am sure you have the same problem we all have.  the news manipulates opinion by what they report and how they report it.  since most of the public gets their info in a 1/2 of nightly news, the press has a great deal of power.

 the press has always been used to sway public opinion.  knowing that, you can still get facts if you can filter the editorializing. when the press crosses the line and sways public opinion by omission, or by manipulation of the facts to support their position, that's a different matter.  unfortunately, the general public has gotten to lazy to fact check, or to look for their own info.  it's an odd thing in this age of info, that people can not seem to stir themselves to be educated.

good luck on your signature gathering.  it can be done if  enough people are reached.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2008, 02:19:41 AM »

Mici. I have not idea about Ireland referendum, or federal Europe...  huh What has voted Slovenia?
Where am I? Who am I? : Wink
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Mici
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2008, 06:57:39 AM »

well, the creme in our parliament voted YES, we have signed the treaty, although NOT 1 of the members read it, because it's not even in Slovenian language, plus it's 300 pages of "unreadable" document. our members of parliament have voted before about some things and have ADMITED to not even know what they voted YES. can you imagine that? i mean...if the denied it ok...but if you admit to make a NATIONALY IMPORTANT call on something you don't even know what's it about? that call for reconstituting hanging, chair, injection and guillotine.

anyway....we have collected 2700 signs of 2500 needed, but our president of the parliament rejected the petition, although it is not in his juridisdiction.
anyway...parliament has broken several laws trying to prevent us from having a referendum so....the house of law calls. the biggest problem is, people know nothing about it, as politics control the media so there hasn't been a single article about the whole thing.
Abejaruco, from now on (2009) you are an European!
it is a shame that the birthplace of modern democracy has turned into a modern oligarhic state (slovenia). when i say birth place of modern democracy i'm aiming at Carantania (around year 1000).
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2008, 07:33:54 PM »

mici, i asked my sister about ireland.  she told me that they get a lot of eu money.  she says they will fold before they give that up.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Mici
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2008, 07:42:51 AM »

hmmm, if people are gonna be well informed and the government will do it's job (listen to people's voice), they should reject it. but if their government decides like other 20 (don't know the number of EU countries) that they're contempt enough to decide in the name of their people, then, it's gonna get messy.
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abejaruco
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2008, 12:46:39 AM »

Quote
like other 20 (don't know the number of EU countries)

Much, much...muchísimos...2000 or 3000. Smiley
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abejaruco
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2008, 12:48:28 AM »

Excuseme, Mici. I´m laughing about Europe. Sorry.
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2008, 12:01:26 PM »

mici, the brits just lost their promised right to hold a referendum on the EU.  the government will now  do the treaty.  it is, after all, in the best interest of the people......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2008, 04:34:06 PM »

This is like a frickin' steam roller, happening all over the world!
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abejaruco
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2008, 05:45:29 PM »

Quote
This is like a frickin' steam roller, happening all over the world!

The global warming? Smiley
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reinbeau
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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2008, 05:50:20 PM »

No, individual rights going away for the 'common good'.  Scary phrase  shocked
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2008, 03:19:34 AM »

No, individual rights going away for the 'common good'.  Scary phrase  shocked

Yes, I can't conceive of one more terrifying than "for the common good."
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Mici
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« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2008, 08:25:41 AM »

there really isn't much i can add here. Can you give me the link to the news or something, i can't find it.
But, searching the net, about irish referendum has given me hope, most of comments are against the lisbon treaty, so i guess the truth will get out and save us.
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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2008, 11:22:40 AM »

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=england+referendum

i just googled.  it's a little hard to tease out the info.  according to my sister, they have essentially voted not to vote on letting the people have a referendum, and have decided to leave the fate of the treaty in the hands of Parliament.  there are enough votes there to ratify it.

i have a little trouble understanding how the Brits do things.  I'm not sure i have to whole thing right.  maybe you understand their system.

anyway, the upshot is that the decision on the treaty will not be put to a vote by the people, it will be ratified by the government.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Mici
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« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2008, 01:05:37 PM »

huh, i didn't even know the english were going to have a referendum, i knew for ireland, but not for england. I just hope Ireland doesn't give up....
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