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Author Topic: NWC Nucs, shipped?  (Read 4451 times)
Moonshae
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« on: January 01, 2008, 12:58:39 PM »

Can anyone recommend someone who ships NWC nucs?
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Old Timer
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2008, 03:53:21 PM »

If you get a nuc of a different strain of bee you can requeen it with a NWC queen and all the bees in the nuc will be NWC in a few months. The main thing is finding someone who will sell you an early nuc. I'm sure that by the time a nuc is available for that you will be able to get whatever type of queen you want. This is what I would do instead of searching high and low for a certain strain of bee in a nuc cause you may not find it early enough. Get an early nuc and requeen it.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 06:32:33 PM »

better move fast or he will be sold out -you gota order early - cheesy  cool        http://www.geocities.com/fatbeeman/                         this is the only place- Wink that i know of -RDY-B
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Shawn
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 12:21:12 AM »

I contated  http://www.geocities.com/fatbeeman/     for Russians and he told me he would start taking orders in Feb.
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2008, 02:52:54 PM »

Buckeye Bee has them.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 04:44:10 PM »

Buckeye Bee has them.
                                yes but dose he ship them is the concern
                   RDY-B
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rdy-b
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2008, 04:55:21 PM »

Buckeye Bee has them.
                                yes but dose he ship them is the concern
                   RDY-B
   by jingos  grin just found out they will ship its all good Wink RDY-B
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Moonshae
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2008, 07:04:32 PM »

He doesn't label them as NWC, just carniolan. Is there a significant difference, or is it like kleenex/facial tissue...branding?
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2008, 11:28:26 PM »

They are both carniolans, right? When you call Buckeye Bee you can ask them where their breeding stock comes from. If you trace the breeders back far enough you'll probably find that somewhere down the line they came from Susan Cobey's New World Carnolian breeding program. The program was started back in 1981  so they've had 26 years of selling the carnicas all over the country.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2008, 12:04:48 AM »

 grin nice avatar cheesy RDY-B
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NWIN Beekeeper
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2008, 01:57:18 AM »

There are New World Carnolians and Old World Carnolians and the world of mutts in between.

New World Carnolians are the product of Sue Colby with help from many generations of mentors.
While these are based off of the european species, we do not expect a direct linage back to that old stock.  We are interested in performance, not pedigree.

The Old World Carnolian lines do care about pedigree. There are very devote standards in the European countries to maintain exact lines. There are website devoted to pedigree linages (like race horses, or dogs!).

So a Carnolian is not just a Carnolian.
Most breeders in the US will that promote NWC carnolians actually buy breeder queens or have other in-roads with the NWC program stocks. Other honest ones that sell mutt, or lines that have been opened mates enough that purity is a question, will simply name them carnolian, rather than NWC, out of respect.

It is highly unlikely to have true Old World Carnolian stock, though some, but few do.  Stock in these bees are very expensive, and may or may not have import embargoes or ridiculous quarantine timelines.  This doesn't mean that drone semen hasn't/doesn't made it over the border for some instrumental insemination either.

While this doesn't help the original topic, I hope it brings clarity to the different varieties of species.

I would say that one should not be opposed to buying an Italian Nuc in the spring and requeening.
You may end up with a stronger nuc (and colony) that way because NWC nucs can build up late in spring (but do so fast).  Italians tend to lay earlier in spring and may provide a quicker and larger population that can establish faster.  Once established, re-queening, though an extra cost, is not difficult. Personally, I'd rather re-stock my colonies with reputable queens later, rather than jockeying for the lowest price nuc of a specific species.

Heads Up!: Some of the biggest package suppliers will sell say a Russian Package.  This often only means it has a Russian Queen, but the rest of the population maybe (was, in my cases) Italian.  I don't like this because I buy for genetics, mite resistance, and colony establishment. With a mixed package ( as is typical) you now have whatever package drones openly mating with your local stocks (that will eventually mate your queens!), you have whatever mite load the Italian line could carry into your apiary, and you have workers that recognize a slightly different pheromone set than the foreign queen (setting you up for supercedure or worse, non-acceptance and laying workers).   While this isn't nice, its something to consider when buying bees.  When buying nucs, compare the color and pattern of the mature workers with emerging brood. Make sure both are consistent and normal with the species you are buying for. If not, ask the seller about the discrepancies, this can be a sign that the nuc was thrown together for a buck, but it also can be less nefarious, brood can be taken from other species to boost the population.  Nuc queens that are handled reasonably during transit tend to be superseded less than package queens, but again, some species need extra care or time in the introduction stage. [IE Russians can be difficult but I have 100% acceptance keeping the queen on combs under a wire frame cage for 4-5 days prior to release.]

Sorry, no vendors, but at least hopefully some quality advice.

-Jeff
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2008, 03:48:49 AM »

NWC is the name of a breeding program only. This program is breeding Carnicas. Carnicas are still Carnolians. The NWC breeding program has a fancy name and has been around for 26 years and Carnicas have evolved for millions. You are not going to change a bee in 26 years. I'm sure you can select for certain behaviors and traits when breeding but you are not going to change the bee. All you can do is raise some and try to breed from your favorites. Though you may claim it is a different variety of species, I claim that it is a very clever sales gimmick. A gimmick that actually has someone who is dedicated in selecting from a higher standard of stock for breeder queens.

I have to disagree about the build up. I've had both Italians and NWC. In my area the carnica built up fast in the spring. You don't want to stimulate them into laying because they build up fast anyway. The Italians need stimulating to keep up with the Carnicas. I'd rather start out with Carnica and requeen with the Italian when the Carnies slow down. My Italians will outperform the Carnicas through the rest of the year but the Carnica wins in the spring hands down. By the way, if you talk you Susan Cobey she does not call them New World Carniolans, she will call them either Carnica or Carniolan.

Since they are so close to one another I would say that Buckeye Bees get their breeders from Latshaw Apiaries. Joe Latshaw used to work for Susan at OSU and is still trying to improve on what he helped with since 1988. He now calls and advertises his as Karnicas (so now they are a different variety of species again?) though they came from the NWC program.
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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 11:09:55 AM »

[NWC is the name of a breeding program only.]

Actually NWC references the location (North America) and denotes a degree of linage.
It used to reference a single program, but now it refers to a joint effort of programs and people to put these efforts to practical usage in the field. (Just like Russian bees are currently a project for the USDA, but the end result is for broad acceptance and usage.)

[Carnicas are still Carnolians. ]

This sentence is technically correct.  I think you were trying to imply that all Carnolian/Carnica/Karnica bee lines started in the same place in Europe, and because of that today they are still somehow created equal. You present that name sake is merely a fraud to get people to buy someones line of bees.

Maybe in your mind, but you might not want to act like you are speaking on behalf of the world's beekeeping community.  There are a lot of hard working people that do cultivate some very good stocks. And if cultivation and good good results don't merit a variety name (not a scientific or taxonomic name change), perhaps we'd best go back to calling corn, grass.

[You are not going to change a bee in 26 years.]

Again, I don't think we're trying to grow an extra set of legs or performing gene splicing, we're talking about real-world selection. While your statements are wonderfully dramatic, they don't represent the efforts and improvements to which many people are devoting their entire lives. And many of these changes are simple enough to perform on single backyard hives. Its almost shameful to down play the impact the efforts these people have made.

I can improve the performance of my bee stocks and genetics to have better performance in one year.  And I can do that within the same genetic line of bees (not by requeening or introducing a new line). While it may not appear that I have 'changed a bee', I have steered the genetics towards certain traits and controlling mating does squelch and suppress undesirable characteristics. This 'steering' can perform a  change that results in many quality queens that otherwise would have taken nature thousands of years to have produced one queen at a chance happening.  When cultivating like this helps both the beekeeper and the bees themselves, this is as good of stewardship one can hope to perform.  I don't what miracle of change you need before you consider that humble man has made a change.

[Joe Latshaw used to work for Susan at OSU and is still trying to improve on what he helped with since 1988. ]

Evidently Joe is wasting his time "trying to improve" a strain of bees that "You are not going to change...".
Or else you have conflicting theories.  Or perhaps hes just working "a very clever sales gimmick."  I don't think you truly believe that, else you would not have used him as a respectable reference, (unless you are just name dropping to appear credible?)

[...if you talk you Susan Cobey she does not call them New World Carniolans, she will call them either Carnica or Carniolan.]

I have, and yes she does.
I don't suppose your family runs around calling you by your full first, middle, and last name either?
Might you guess its out of ease of conversation? I use the 'NWC' notation because it gives respect to the efforts of those that developed the line.

[Since they are so close to one another I would say that Buckeye Bees get their breeders from Latshaw Apiaries.]

I say take a moment and call any supplier for yourself and ask.  The correct information from the horses mouth is always the most credible, besides sometimes sources change.  A Wild Assparagus Guess will only leave you with doubt or even the wrong assumption.

[I have to disagree about the build up. ]

Go ahead, you are entitled to your opinion.

[The Italians need stimulating to keep up with the Carnicas.]

This has not been my experience, and I've not heard this to be the normal experience people have with Italian lines of bees.  Italians in my experience lay earlier, harder, and later than carnolians, and this can result in needing more supportive feedings than carnolians.  These supportive feeding are not stimulation, but starvation prevention.

[In my area the carnica built up fast...]

This statement is likely based on a number of conditions that may or may not apply for the individual buy nucs. First off you are probably referring to established hives, and colonies perform differently depending on queen age,  establishment of honey/pollen stores, and drawn comb availability. So while this blanket statement is fine for an established hive, one should not expect the same magnitude of results from a nuc ot a colony with a substantial amount of undrawn foundation. Secondly, fast isn't always best. In colder climates, there needs to be enough bees to cover the brood. A rapid laying session by the queen without supportive house bees can result in dead, chilled brood. A gradual build up would assure the population aligns with the brood needs. I have seen, and heard from others that spring cold snaps can hinder varieties (russian, carni) that lay hard and fast in early spring, rather than gradually through late winter. Third, southern climates may have earlier flows that stimulate brood building earlier than northern climates. Keep in mind your relative climate and its affect on the timeline.  (Your oranges [Feb.] are not my apples [May].)

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Angi_H
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2008, 02:21:29 AM »

Any one know any one in Ca that has nuks. Or ships nuks close to Ca. The one is in Ga And I do not want to stress out a nuk and have it shipped all the way cross country.

Angi
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