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Author Topic: 2 hives dead, 2 alive  (Read 5125 times)
randydrivesabus
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« on: December 29, 2007, 09:54:43 AM »

I went out this morning to try the stethoscope thing that was discussed in another thread and I didn't hear much so I started digging into my hives. i have 4 and 2 of them are dead. the other 2 seem to be holding their own. below is a picture of one of the dead hives. plenty of bees but they are all dead. the other dead hive had few bees. if someone could identify what happened from the pic i would appreciate it.


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Cindi
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 10:02:18 AM »

Randy, oh that is too sad.  I cannot offer too much advice, other than my sorrow.

I think by looking at the picture that I see pollen on the left side of the frame, I see some capped brood.  What I don't see is any honey stores.  Perhaps the bees starved?  You will hear other comments and questions that will arise from other forum friends.  Sorry to hear of the loss.  Well, you can look at the bright side....that is you have 2 colonies left.  Have a great day, try hard.  Cindi
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 10:07:17 AM »

Randy, sorry for your loss. Can only guess like Cindi said, that they starved. Are the bees in the brood dead as well? If not I would add them if you could to one of your other hives.

Sincerely, JP
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 10:08:46 AM »

JP, I highly doubt that any brood would be alive, they would have been chilled to death without the bees covering them to keep them warm.  Good thought though.  Best of this great day, Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 10:26:47 AM »

Hi Randy,

That is how my bees looked when they starved to death - there was honey in the hive, but because of the cold the cluster couldn't move to the honey so they starved.  Bees are so democratic.  They eat together and die together when the stores are low - no pigs in the beehive.

So sorry.  I'm worried about one of my hives, too - no noise but the hive is heavy with honey.  It's supposed to be in the 60s today so I hope I'll see some flying, but one of the sad beekeeper truths is that we can't control everything.....

Sorry for your loss,

Linda T
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 10:28:20 AM »

The thing that is weird is that that hive has brood, so I'm assuming that the temps are not that cold.
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 10:39:24 AM »

Yes, the hive has brood, but that could have been brood that is several weeks old, and may have died several weeks ago, not likely the brood is alive, depending on when the bees were able to be active to cap the brood.  I think that we need to know when the last time he checked the hives, how long ago was brood rearing weather, etc.  Mysteries here to solve.  Have a great and wonderful day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 11:28:29 AM »

I think you're probably right Cindi, about the brood being chilled, or dead also, but I thought it was worth a look. Could have been a strong switch in the weather that brought the problem on, who knows.

Wondering, JP
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 11:44:47 AM »

i'm surprised there's any brood at all but the weather has been fluctuating between mild (50's during the day) and winterlike (low 30's during the day). there was plenty of stores in the hive but they must have been concentrating on keeping the brood warm instead of moving the stores around. so the bright side is that i have some frames of pollen and frames of honey that i can feed to my other hives.
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annette
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2007, 11:57:47 AM »

Hearing stuff like this really scares me because I thought the cluster moves around as one unit inside the hive to find the stores. How else does a beekeeper know how to save them. For instance, I checked on my 2 hives a couple of weeks ago and found that the top super were still full of honey. So I am assuming they have enough food to eat. I also have weather like that of Randydrivesabus. Except colder at night (down to the high twenty, low thirty and up to about 50's day.

What else can be done to prevent this starving situation? I am feeling nervous right now.

Annette
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2007, 12:13:56 PM »

you need to look in your hives and see if the cluster is near to any honey. if not you have to move the honey to them without breaking up the cluster. i did not look in the hive since the fall until today. that was my mistake. i need to become less of a beehaver and more of a beekeeper.
btw...the temperatures i was referring to in my post above were daytime temps. our usual night time low is the teens to the 20's.
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Ray Hall
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2007, 05:25:40 PM »

Sorry for the loss of your hives. My theroy is they froze. I suggest this based on my time in the grocery business. Ever go into the dairy department a see a fly on the shelf just standing there still. If you were to touch it you would find it dead. What happens they land on the cold surface, the cold goes up their legs and into their body and they can't move and freeze.


Ray
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JP
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2007, 05:57:54 PM »

I had a young bee on the hood of my truck a little while ago. Some of them were landing on the hood today. Never started the truck today at all. Later on, a little while ago, I had come back to the house to continue working on my wife's car and noticed a young bee with pollen on the hood of the truck, but she wasn't moving much at all. The temps have dropped from earlier today and I think she got chilled, sitting on the truck's hood, and was just laying there, still, so I picked her up (cupping her in my hand to warm her) and she slowly became more active, then flew off. I feel like if I wouldn't have  picked her up she would have died on the hood of my truck, and she was much too young to die. She flew over the fence towards the hives, guess she'll be ok.

Saving chilled bees, JP
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 07:00:53 PM »

Was there any honey above cluster -cluster moves up and down easer than side ways -every experience i have had with starvation the bees died head first into the comb -your pictures did not look like they where doing that -how many frames of bees where in that box- was there some kind of cold snap that could have caught them off guard and they froze in place off of honey? what are you running for brood boxes 2 deeps? signal deep? story and a half?- brood was at top of frame like they where trying to move up -are they out of the wind -I think sometimes the wind can cause more problems than people speak of -need to know what size cluster was -RDY-B
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2007, 08:26:22 PM »

Look closer, there are many bee bottoms showing in those cells.  That means starvation to me.  Reason for starvation?  I would guess they were anchored to the brood as was mentioned in previous posts.  In the deadout with few bees, was there any brood present?  Perhaps they lost the queen late season and numbers dwindled too far?  THe frame looks like a natural cell frame w/ sideways wedge for a starter, is that right?  It's a good looking frame regardless.  Just for kicks, are there many dead varroa in the brood or on adults or bottomboard?
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 09:15:58 PM »

ATA boy BC apon further investigation i see those bee buts -there in the circular void -in lower left corner -well thats how -now for the why -tell us about the colony configuration -boxes- cluster size-placement of food stores-remember experience is a hard teacher she gives the test first and the lesson second -RDY-B
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annette
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 09:46:10 PM »

We had such a warm early winter, that the bees were breaking cluster all the time and flying out like crazy most afternoons. I would think they could move around inside and get to where the honey is.

I feel bad for your lose and I am confused also as to how this happens.

Annette
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 10:01:20 PM »

Look closer, there are many bee bottoms showing in those cells.  That means starvation to me.  Reason for starvation?  I would guess they were anchored to the brood as was mentioned in previous posts.  In the deadout with few bees, was there any brood present?  Perhaps they lost the queen late season and numbers dwindled too far?  THe frame looks like a natural cell frame w/ sideways wedge for a starter, is that right?  It's a good looking frame regardless.  Just for kicks, are there many dead varroa in the brood or on adults or bottomboard?
yes....its a frame with starter strip.  there were bees on maybe 4 frames. it looked like a nice cluster. there was a deep with quite a bit of honey one flight up. and a medium with more honey up another level (well...that honey is crushed and being strained right now)so what i said before about the bees sticking to the brood is most likely what did them in. plenty of warm weather for them to have moved up if they were willing to abandon the brood.
the hive with few bees had no brood so it is possible that they lost their queen late in the season. screened BB so can't check there for mites but I did a mite count in the early fall and the count was not excessive.
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annette
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 10:15:45 PM »

So this still has me confused. I thought they know not to make brood when it is so cold. Don't they know they will be stuck caring for this brood and not be able to get to the food???

What do they do in the wild?? Do they place the honey all around them in the brood chamber??? This still has me worried as most of the honey left for them is up above in the top super. There were some frames of honey down below, but not much.
I checked on them 2 weeks ago, when we had a warmer day and they still had a whole super full of honey right above them. They were not clustering at that time, they were flying out like crazy.

With the weather this cold right now, it is impossible to open up the hive and do anything. I never heard that I would have to move frames of honey around in the winter. I only knew that I would have to add some frames from my freezer if I looked inside and could not see any more honey on top.

So still confused!!! I am reading and trying to learn what is going on here.

Annette

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rdy-b
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2007, 10:24:43 PM »

Dose this mean 4 frames of bees is not enough bees to winter in your area or do you think there was to much empty space for 4 frames of bees -maybe a deep with the medium box over it would be better for 4 frames of bees -one thing to remember is with plenty of warm weather -they must have flown a lot and consumed the honey around the brood very fast    RDY-B
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Angi_H
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2007, 01:11:15 AM »

YOu have a Screened BB did you not put the slide back in the BB. If you didnt you wouldnt be able to keep the hive warm. As all of the cold air would have traveled up through the hive. I would also think that they had way to much space to keep them warm with 2 supers of honey on top of there space that is a big amount for 4 frames of bees to keep warm.

What I have been reading in the books is when you are getting ready to winter the hives. Place the board back on the screened BB to keep the heat in and the wind out. As well as only have 2 hive bodys if it is 2 deeps or 3 med. No more otherwise they might get chilled and die because it is to much space for them to keep warm. Did you wrap the hives?  I am still learning here so I am trying to figure it out from what I have read and learned here so I know for next winter.

Angi
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2007, 07:30:41 AM »

one of my hives which is still going strong went through last winter without the plastic slide in the SBB so I don't think that was the problem. But having said that I plan to put the board in the other 2 hives just to eliminate that as a possibility. And the same is true of the hive box arrangement. With the weather being so changeable I would think that the more honey available the better. I think I should have moved it around some on those warmer days. I think that is where I mismanaged.
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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 11:17:36 AM »

So this still has me confused. I thought they know not to make brood when it is so cold. Don't they know they will be stuck caring for this brood and not be able to get to the food???
What do they do in the wild?? Do they place the honey all around them in the brood chamber??? This still has me worried as most of the honey left for them is up above in the top super. There were some frames of honey down below, but not much.
I checked on them 2 weeks ago, when we had a warmer day and they still had a whole super full of honey right above them. They were not clustering at that time, they were flying out like crazy.
With the weather this cold right now, it is impossible to open up the hive and do anything. I never heard that I would have to move frames of honey around in the winter. I only knew that I would have to add some frames from my freezer if I looked inside and could not see any more honey on top.
So still confused!!! I am reading and trying to learn what is going on here.
Annette

Annette, I know, trying to understand the bees is so confusing.  I am still trying to "get it", and I have tried to learn lots.

The bees when it has been warmed a bit, like you had experienced, may have began to raise a little brood, they can't see into the future that it may get really cold suddenly, they live for the day.  That is my gist of them.  Could be right, could be wrong.

Like Rdy-b was saying, the bees have more of a tendency to move upwards, not sideways.  A larger cluster can more easily move sideways than a smaller cluster.  That is the importance of the bees going into winter strong.  So many people do splits in the fall, I presume they have luck with that, wintering nucs, I have read about it all the time.

Unless my mind can be changed, I would far sooner (in my climate anyways), do the splitting in the spring, when weather is warmer and bees have an easier chance of looking after themselves in smaller colonies.  I will always have a quest to go into winter with the biggest colonies I can convince my bees to raise.

Annette, your bees have clustered and unclustered.  They probably have moved lots of honey close to their cluster.  You must not be so worried, and only way to say it, time will only be the teller of the tale of the winter success.  I know that is easy to say, but had to say it.  You have gone into winter with lots of stores, I remember you saying that.  For that safety net, why don't you put some dry sugar on the inner cover (if you have a hole in the inner cover) if this could alleviate some stress for you.  If not, let the bees be bees.  It seems to me that you have a pretty short cold period where you live and the bees will soon be breaking cluster again, moving honey closer to them.  This is my take on this, and I hope that you may feel a little better.  I am not the expert, but these are my thoughts, and I honestly think that things will be OK -- have a wonderful, beautiful day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2007, 01:10:31 PM »

Thank you Cindi.

I think things will be ok for my bees. I would not place sugar on top as they have the honey on top if they can get up there to get it. I was just concerned how something like this could happen when a beekeeper does all the correct things.

But you are correct that they have been clustering and unclustering and probably moving honey around as needed.

Take care and have a wonderful and happy New Years Eve.

Annette
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« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2007, 05:11:58 PM »

You may find brood in a hive any time of the year.  NORMALLY they stop in October around here and start back up in January or February for a small batch of brood and then let that batch emerge before starting another.  By the first of March they are seriously raising brood.  Here, we could have sub zero weather in April on rare occasions and it would not even be strange to have it in March.  I don't think you'll have any problems with them stuck on brood in your part of the world (Placerville, CA).
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« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2007, 06:05:00 PM »

<And the same is true of the hive box arrangement. With the weather being so changeable I would think that the more honey available the better. I think I should have moved it around some on those warmer days. I think that is where I mismanaged.>                                                                                                                              RANDY- four frames can only consume so much honey give them a space they can regulate the temps better - small bees- small box- anyway keep an eye on the rest best of luck RDY-B
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2007, 11:11:39 AM »

Thank you Michael for that info.

Also, I am reading what RDy-B is saying and managing the room seems very important also.

This clears up a lot for me. Hope all is well for you now Randy.

Annette
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2007, 12:50:44 PM »

i went through the stages and have arrived at acceptance. so all is well. nice out today and i plan to disturb my other 2 hives. the next few days are going to be single digits to teens at night and 20's-30's during the day with some snow and wind.

I just finished looking at my other 2 hives. Its around 50 degrees, sunny, with hardly any wind.
The first one I looked at the cluster was in the top box which was almost empty of honey. the box below it was full of stores so I switched the 2 boxes thinking that the cluster will move up. They were somewhat active.
The second hive I looked at is my only >1 year old hive....this is its 2nd winter. This hive has been historically an aggressive bunch. They haven't changed. I got stung through the veil on my nose. This is the first time I was using this bee jacket so I will remember to keep the veil away from my face in the future. This cluster was also in the top box which still had stores. the bottom box was completely empty. I put the top box on the bottom and took away the bottom box. I then replaced the top box with a very heavy deep from one of my dead hives. The entrances are reduced to the smallest opening and I put those corrugated plastic inserts under the SBB. I expect to find them in the woods after they blow out. Maybe some duck tape would help.
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CBEE
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2008, 09:48:44 AM »

Randy I cant help thinking the way your post subject reads. It sounds like a headline out of the ole west. SHOOT OUT AT THE O BEE CORRAL ! 2 DEAD 2 ALIVE  grin
I think your weather is a lot like mine in the winter. Mine is sort of in between and the winter temps  fluctuate alot. we get 3 or 4 days of 32 and below and then 3 or 4 days of 40's and 50's. That may be harder on the bees than a consistant cold or warm temp. I wonder if when the day gets warm enough for them to break cluster and the next day the temp drops below freezing they may cluster where there is no honey. Then the temp stays cold long enough for them to starve because they dont move to where its at Huh?
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2008, 03:36:36 PM »

Hey Randy, sorry to read about your bees. Since I live quite close to you, I'm worried about my hive. The temperatures plumetted to around 10 degrees F last night. I hope that didn't catch the bees off-guard. Once it warms up a bit, I'll go out and check.
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2008, 04:59:34 PM »

from what i've read it will be well into the 50's in just 3 or 4 days. good luck.
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« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2008, 05:43:52 PM »

Yep. The other item that caught my eye within these posts are the comments about reducing the entrance. The person who is helping me, 40 years experience, has me leaving my entrances open to reduce condensation. Could that be the source of your troubles?
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2008, 07:04:03 PM »

well...the entrances on the dead hives were both unreduced. the entrances on the 2 living hives are reduced.
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2008, 02:47:44 PM »

I would think that that hive died well before you looked in it. Since you still had brood which had not emerged I would think the hive dies around or before December 1rst. Probably due to varroa or tracheal mites. There was not enough bees to keep the cluster or brood warm so they probably froze because of it. Any activity that you've see was bees robbing the stores out.
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