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Author Topic: Sting Therapy  (Read 3790 times)
Hayesbo
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« on: December 27, 2007, 04:48:42 AM »

Good day all.

I watched a thread almost develop from Angi's comments about being a chronic pain patient. (Angi you have my deepest sympathies) Chronic pain is severely depressing and has trials of its own to deal with even without the obvious drawbacks from the meds. I will try to start a discussion that hopefully I haven't just missed on the existing boards.

I have dealt with herniated discs and recurring herniations for the fast few years, had surgery and pain medication. Currently, I am free of the medications and I can say that the stings I have taken over the summer have definately helped. Now it is winter (more or less) the pain is returning and I am not able to abuse the bees for their precious venom. I am looking at trying to deliberately get stung instead of my usual, one-or-two-inside-the-veil-run-like-a-flapping-maniac-dance that I usually do.

My question for those who are more experienced is, "Where is the 'best' place to get stung?" What area of the body reacts less to the sting and allows the best venom delivery?

I hope this sparks some good debate for all of us who can use the info.  Thanks to all,  Steve
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 10:36:40 AM »

Steve, you have started a great thread, and I am anxious to hear comments from members too.  I know that I have certainly less pain in my knees in the summer time too, but I don't get alot of bee stings, so even the few that I do get, seem to help alot.

I know there are certain parts of the body that deliver the venon more quickly, and I can attest to that, like anything above the neck and if you get stung above the lip, well that causes reactions in really weird parts of the body, I will say no more.

I have heard that acupuncture points are good places to inflict the sting.  I have no clue where these are though, hee, hee.  Wait, you will hear some valuable comments coming on I am sure (I am waiting too).

When I give bee stings to my family, I focus on putting the sting nearest to the point where they are feeling pain or problems, I think that it works pretty well.  Best of this great and wonderful day, Cindi
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2007, 11:30:33 AM »

Thanks Cindi,  I had a bet with myself on who would be the first to reply. I won a coke from myself. Wink

I failed to mention that while I am not afraid of pain, I have had some stings that were less enjoyable than others. A finger tip and between the toes were the worst ones that come to mind. I guess all the other stings kind of blend together in annoyance. (I don't think I am elligible to be called "bee charmer"). I am also looking for the most pain free spot to apply the bee behind.

Has anyone extracted venom and injected it deeper into tissue to avoid the localized histamine reaction?

I haven't been stung in the lower back, but the stings that I have taken everywhere else still seem to really help a lot. Hard to believe that I usually don't get stung when I work the hives. It is just that when I do, I really get beat up.

Thanks,  Steve
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2007, 01:00:01 PM »

 i don't think i'd want a deep tissue or IM reaction!  that would suck a lot!!!!   + you risk the chance of injecting IV and that would suck also.  i'd stick to stinging the skin and live with the reaction.  also, if you tend toward big reactions, i'd skip the stinging altogether.

i know people who swear by this therapy.  they catch bees in a jar and use tweezers to grab and apply bees.  as i recall, they keep them in the refrigerator to make them a little more sluggish.  double check that, it's just something i remember seeing.
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2007, 01:47:31 PM »

I think I saw a box in the Brushy Mtn catalog for keeping bees for apitherapy. I don't think it was a hive, just a place to keep some bees alive and accessible.

As far as reaction areas, I find that stings where my skin is thinner (inner arm) develop larger reactions than where it is thick (fingers). Since apitherapy for something like a herniated disk would work systemically (since the stinger can't deliver the venom directly to the affected area), I would think anywhere with good vasculature to allow circulation of the venom would be fine.
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Hayesbo
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2007, 01:53:23 PM »

Looks like I will have to try a few areas and post my experiences here. Good to hear the medical terminology again, I have been out of the surgical field for about 4 years. I miss it sometimes. (Then I go a weekend without an emergency call haha.)

Anyone else with any ideas? This could be a fun thread as well as informative.


Thanks everyone,  Steve
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« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2007, 02:43:05 PM »

Steve, from what I have gathered, people who use bee sting therapy apply the stings to the affected area of the body where they are experiencing pain. Myself, my fingers ocassionally, because of gout, and my right thigh for sciatic nerve problems. A friend dated a girl yrs ago that had some type of back problem. He would administer the stings to the back area, but in time he said he had to give her more and more stings for the affect. He had enough at some point because he became alarmed that he could possibly give her a bad reaction one day. She went on to marry a doctor, go figure. Watch out for thinly skinned areas like the lips and inner arm area, face, etc... where more allergic reactions are bound to occur.

Sincerely, JP
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2007, 02:50:00 PM »

When stung, I have less arthritic pain for a day or so. I have noticed, it works better if stung near the pain site. I also take out the stinger which certainly reduces the venom injected so you may want to leave it in for more venom. You can see the "little pump" go if you look closely. I even had to take a stinger out w/ my mouth as my hands were full once, and the stinger "deadened " my tongue for a few moments and it itched for a minute or so. I was cotimplating trying apitherapy but it became unnecessary. I was planning to sting myself on my actual surgery sites on my knee as the scar tissue would result in no feeeling anyway.Now i just enjoy the occassional dose when the girls get angry.
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 05:57:07 PM »

i find that i have to be stung at the site for it to help any.  getting stung in the hands doesn't help my back pain. i had to get stung directly at the lower back to feel any relief at all.  i'm not sure if there are "sting" points just like accupuncture that would benefit certain parts of the body or if it were like foot  reflexology where they believe almost all parts of the body are affected by the feet.  i've gotten stung on my toes a couple of times and it hurts!  i'm told the worse stings are in the ears, lips and the portion between the upper lip and nose and the eyes.
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the kid
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2007, 07:37:30 PM »

My hands are the thing that hurts more then other body parts ...notice I said more..   I feel more  pain with the cold weather ....    last summer the girls were good to me and stung me only a few times ,,,,  but I kind of looked forward to when they did sting ... cause my hands would feel better for a few days ( when they did sting I ended up with 2 or 3 stings )      now I cann't wait for it to get warm enough so I can check the hives   ( then I'm going to kidnap a few and get some mid winter stings ) oh I will put some candy in for a piece maker ... one of my kids don't want me to do it as hes afraid i will get alergic ...  says i m' alegic to enough now .. but hey whats one more thing ,,, right?Huh?? 
all I know my hands hurt a lot less when i get stung .. and were they sting does not matter ...
 now the worst place
I have been stung is on the end of the finger and or  the side of the finger right next to the nail ,,,  I mean she slide her butt down the nail til she got to the skin ,, it was in the grove next to the nail 
My grand son got stung on his toungue but that was a yellow jacket ,that got in his popcan ,,,,,    he is 4 years old ,,,   he get mad cause he thought he killed one of the girls when it stung him ,but not because he got stung ...   
the kid
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Hayesbo
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 07:50:03 PM »

Awesome posts folks! This really is the best site out there. I look forward to getting Ventrillio set up.


I went to one hive today and gathered several bees in a jar. Refrigerated them and used forceps to grasp them and place them on my forearm. I did 10 stings this way. I left the stingers in and pumping to get the most out of the experience. All 10 stingers stayed in about 1-3 minutes at a time. Refrigerating them made them very sluggish and easy to handle. If I had someone else to help I would try the stings on the back but I know my wife is out of the question. The bees are not her thing. She is very supportive but holding one to my back to deliberatly get stung is too much to ask of any non medical person or non fellow beekeeper.

To stay on the safe side, I took benedryl about 20 minutes before trying this. I do not have reactions to stings, but I wasn't sure about multiple stings in the same area.

I will see how everything goes and post again my pain levels tomorrow. It was about a 5 today. Hopefully I can report a drastic difference tomorrow.

Thanks for all the help folks.
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Hayesbo
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 04:29:32 AM »

It is 4:26am I am happy to report that I am pain free and doing well. There is some tenderness at the multiple injection site. Right forearm 10 stings in an area about 2 inches circular. It feels like a bruise and a burn, really not too bad. I will have a very physical day today at work as I am short staffed and will report again this evening.

Thanks all for the help. Any fresh ideas or concerns are still welcome.

Steve
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2007, 07:31:15 AM »

Steve,

There is a local guy here is MS and R. Arthritis that belongs to our bee club.  He does bee sting therapy all the time.  His method is to go to the hive and collect the old dying bees just outside the entrance.  That way he will not kill any viable bees.

He then puts them in ice cold water.  This immobilizes the bees so you can work them.  He picks them up with the locking type forceps and stings himself along the spine.  He stated if you do this 2-3 times per week and you work your way up to 15 stings per session then you will no longer have the swelling/itching affect from the bees.  You will also not have this affect from any other insects.  That might be worth while doing just for that purpose.  He said after you build up to the healing point (15 sting sessions) then you should also add a few more stings to the local area that is bothering you with pain.

Hope this helps.  He told us all he learned alot of this from a Dr in Ohio when he underwent intense apitherapy.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 stings per session 4 * per week.
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2007, 07:48:28 AM »

Whilst we are  on this subject. Any of you guys sell bees for this purpose ?
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2007, 08:31:53 AM »

Steve, ha!!!!  So you really took that bull by the horns, that was excellent that you reported to us before you went to work about your experience, you got guts!!!!  Good.  15 stings in a small area, hee haw!!!

You began a great post and you will get more responses I don't doubt one bit.  People love to tell of their bee therapy and sting experiences (and let me tell you, there are some funnnneeeeeee ones that I have read in my readings on this forum). 

One of the funniest ones (you, my dear old forum friends will remember this one) that happened here was the day my Husband and I were heading off to a funeral.  It was actually his Mother's, so it was not a good day.  His very swollen and ugly looking face brought that smile and laugh to many a face that day, and I know that she smiled down on him too, her Son, a love of her life that always brought that smile to her face -- and made her laugh too.  Miss that old gal.

I was working the bees, he had a beer he had left near the apiary.  When he saw what I was doing to the bees, he got the bleep out of there, he didn't want any part of that, he knew there would be some pretty agitated bees.  But, first, he needed his beer.  Beer.  Bees.  Hmmm....yep, he wanted to finish his beer.  He always watches me work the bees when he is not busy, but this day he had absolutely no quest for that scene.

He walked back to the rock pile where he had set the beer, watching me, watching the bees.  Well, if you wouldn't guess it, he saw her comin', flyin' straight at him, bing.....right between the eyes.  He went back up to the house (probably going to check his eyes out, imagining what he would look like, hee, hee,  Wink Wink Smiley)

Well, when he came back down to see me a few minutes later.  Alien city!!!!  Eeeks.  Yes, and he brought that smile to my face.  Have a wonderful and greatest of this day.  Cind

I would be curious what part of the body a sting between the eyes would help out.  Can't figure that one.  You know, every time I look at this picture, I burst into that little hee, heee, heee laugh that is just loud enough for me to hear when I am sitting in my quiet place.  I think Burl said that his wife has that squeaky little laugh too.

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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2007, 08:31:39 PM »

Steve,
One of the drivers I work with came to me last spring and asked about my willingness to sting him to help with his rheumatiod arthritis.  Worked our way up to 15 stings twice a week after a couple of weeks.  It helped a lot with his pain, but didn't reduce his swelling much.  He obviously got some benefit from it or he wouldn't have returned over and over to be stung that many times.  The weather and our schedules finally interfered, so we stopped until this spring.  I would sting myself 8-10 times each time he would come out.  Never could feel handy with tweezers and always just grabbed them with my fingers, though most seem to use the tweezers.  Other than help condition me for the occasional sting, it helped me a great deal in training for handling our queens.
Our main source of information came from a fantastic 3 part VHS we found on Ebay called "The Art of the Sting" by James R. Higgins.  The only link I can find to this VHS today is one on Draperbee. 

http://www.draperbee.com/beesupplies/videos.htm

He used acupressure points.  He even talked with my coworker on the phone and answered some of his questions. There is a point a couple inches below and to the outside of the knee that will open your sinuses in less than 5 minutes, or anyway that's the way it worked for us.  Some believe that bee sting therapy is just a part of apitherapy and to get the full benefit from the bee stings other hive products need to be included in the treatment, such as pollen, honey, propolis, or royal jelly.
Here's some more links that will take you to some more links.

http://www.apihealth.com/apitherapy.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20050304024521/www.gilbertsville.com/bee/index.htm

http://www.dancingbeeacres.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1057896400

Go for it.  We experienced nothing but benefits.
Arvin
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2007, 08:38:24 PM »

Sting therapy is a good way to deminish pain.  Like Angi I suffer from Fibromyalgia as well as Chronic/Acute Arthritis and multiple neuropathic problems such as sciatica.  The best way to use sting therapy is to apply stings to the affected area.  Start with one sting at each pain site, then increase the number of stings every day by one until you are at a level of 15-20 stings.  Maintain that level for a week and then stop for a month or so and start over.  The increase of the stings is so if you reach a sensitively level you'll know where your limit it.  You need to rest the procedure for a period of time to let the body adjust.

A sting any place on the body will help a little.  A sting at the site helps more.  Using honey both orally and topically is useful for cuts, rashes, fungus's, etc.  Pollen is good for the treatment of allergies and asthma as well as cardo-vasicular problems.  Propolis, used as a mist, releaves asthma and other lung congestion.

Hope this helps.
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Angi_H
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 02:51:17 AM »

Sorry guys I was away from the cp up the mountain at the inlaws for a few days. Yes Chronic pain is a royal pain in the ass. I have degenerative discs in my mid back between my sholder blades. As well as Fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue as well as TMJ (tempromandibular Joint Dysfunction) with a bilateral failed surgery come 2 years in June 08. I currently have bone on bone with no disc in the left joint. And in the right stuped dr left the disc thinking that shaving the bone and tightning the ligamints would work. Well I know it wouldnt and one month after surgery that disc was right back out again.  I currently have about a 17mm opening (bairly the tips of 2 fingers. And sometime when I chew I get a very bad sharp pain in the joints. Then there is the arthritis in there with the ear pain and the ringing in the ears. And well it just plan hurts. The headaches I get the sinus pain from it as well. The eye pain you name it. Add my back to it and the fibro and I am a happy camper. Now Like my mom my knees and hips and elbows are starting to hurt me more and more. I just had my pain patch upped to 75mcg. I have a few of the 50mcg left so I am going to finnish those before I go to the 75s. As the 5os i was on for a year and a half and they stoped working like they used to. I also have break through pain meds and muscle relaxers to help with all of it as well. I really want to get off of most of those that is another reasion I wanted bees. As well as my heirloom gardening. One of my customers for my Chicken, Duck and Quail eggs, As well as the processed chicken and turkey she buys from me. And in the summer she will buy farm fresh heirloom veggies from me does massage therapy, ANd she said we could do barters for services for me. So I might be able to add that in with the bee sting, Porpolis and polin and honey therapy I am adding. That will be the best. If you go to apitherapy.org i think it is it is the American Apitherapy i might be spelling that wrong. They have kits to keep the bees and every book and stuff you need for starting it. They also say that adding the other componits of the hive is actually better then just the stings alone. I am having a fairly high pain day today and my typing and spelling is bad. When I hurt so bad and am tired from no sleep I also get nausia. ANd I am having that now.


Any Way great thread I think we should have a health section in the forums just for this.

Angi
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Cindi
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 09:16:56 AM »

Brian and Angi, my heart goes out to you both, and anyone else that has any intense pain in their bodies.  I complain about such tiny little pains, that I sometimes wonder how I dare.....I have nothing compared to what others experience.  I am not kidding, I wish I could flick my magic wand and take it away from you both.  This is not sympathy wishes, no one wants that, I just want you to know that I wish you all well, and that your pain becomes manageable.

The more that I read about the magic of the bees, the more that I want to learn.  I am on a quest for knowledge, and I need to somehow make more time in my life for study, I study so much as it is, but I need to find even more time.  Maybe I will give up some anal retentive cleaning that I do, hee, hee.  I am a stickler to things to be immaculate in my house, if I cut short my cleaning by even one hour, then I could have more time for study, hee, hee.  But.....I don't think my family would like that.  They love the clean house, hee, hee  tongue rolleyes Wink Smiley

So, off to another venue, study of the sting.  We have a Canadian library of bee stuff in a city called Kamloops.  It is about a 5 hour drive from my home. Too far to drive to borrow the videos, but I have their list of stuff and they will ship the desired items for a charge.  I perused the list a few minutes ago, and it appears that they have most of what the site that Arvin set in his post has.  So, that is a bonus....have a wonderful and beautiful day, wishes for relief of your pains.  Cindi
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Hayesbo
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2007, 06:47:47 PM »

Thanks for the help and the links. I look forward to studying them all.

Now it is 6:30 pm on the 29th two days after my stinging. My back feels great! The rest of my body is a mass of muscle aches (my line loader quit without notice yesterday, so I put a lot of time in the day loading 60LB boxes on a conveyor line.) no more aches than I would expect after yesterday's activities. Without the sting relief I am sure I would have been crippled for a week after all I did yesterday.

I am curious to see what a sting on my discectomy scar would do. Then the sting would be local to the origin of my problem.  Someone on the other thread or early in this one mentioned stinging the scars on a knee since they were numb anyway. Maybe my scar is numb enough to try it. Since it is in the small  of my back I tend to forget I have the scar there. My surgeon was brilliant I have absolutely no complaints over his skills. I was perfectly fine until I herniated the disc again. Now the only surgical option is to have the vertibre (msp) fused. Not an option since he wants to do 3 or 4. I am too young to lose that much mobility. (will turn 40 in June) Maybe when I am older and don't feel like doing as much as I want to now.


Again thanks for the help folks,  Steve
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