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Author Topic: The biggest inventions in beekeeping ever  (Read 4818 times)
Finsky
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« on: December 15, 2007, 05:06:45 AM »

What are we learnig and teaching here? - Yes I know. I have used these words before......

What I do not accept in this forum is that some teach 200 years old beekeeping as a new, profound inventions.
It is sad to see, that beginners do not get advices of modern beekeeping. No extractor, no foundation, no wires, not queen selecting.

It is nice and makes sun shine every day, but those who has planned extra money via beekeeping will be misleaded into deep marsh.

In real life we have short of veterinary in Finland. They are using their time with pet cats and docs and they have not time to take care of farm animals. This forum has same problem. One hive and she/he is a beekeeper.

Before I leave for ever this forum, I suggest that you take a look into beekeeping history.  RETURNING BACK TO YOUR FUTURE!
http://www.product-reviews.net/wp-content/userimages/2007/07/delorean-to-bring-back-their-car-to-the-future.jpg


See first splendid tour via 200 year beekeeping Ukraine bee museum
http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/Museum/Beekeeping_Museum.htm


See more, splended home source of information   
http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/index.htm

http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/history.htm

The frame  --- Many say that frame was invented  there  but A major improvement in hive design was made in 1851 by Lorenzo Langstroth.

The extractor  ….The centrifugal extractor was invented in 1865 by an Austrian, Major Hruschka.

The foundation  It was invented in Austria, in 1857 by Johannes Mehring

The artificial  insemination, mainly used after II world war

The queen breeding = first step was movable frames that you may change the queen and select the new from good hive.
Second was artificial insemination, which made controlled mating possible.

Third was I say, the importing good  bees from others countries. From German black to Italian and Carnica and others.

Can you guess what the next 100 years will bring? ask the history text

Jep, surely,  one fundamental invention is container ship system and selling logistics. It moves honey from country to country and  keep local honey price on it,s level and affects on local beekeeping.

Today logistics of ordinary  grocery makes  honey selling very difficult to local beekeeper, but it makes to customer very easy to taste different kind of honey over the world. 

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/cellsize.html


WORLD WIDE HONEY INCLUDED







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JP
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 06:06:17 AM »

[quote author=Finsky
> What are we learnig and teaching here? - Yes I know. I have used these words before......

> What I do not accept in this forum is that some teach 200 years old beekeeping as a new, profound inventions.
It is sad to see, that beginners do not get advices of modern beekeeping. No extractor, no foundation, no wires, not queen selecting.

> It is nice and makes sun shine every day, but those who has planned extra money via beekeeping will be misleaded into deep marsh.

Finsky, it seems that most of the people who use this site keep bees as a hobby. It appears that your view is that if you don't do beekeeping for profit and yields it is a waste of time. Is this statement correct? Is this how you see it? If so, then I think I finally understand your thinking.

Sincerely, JP
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 06:44:54 AM »

all these "new" beekeeping methods that aren't really new to the world are still new to some of us without a lot of years of experience. Yes, all that info is available someplace besides this forum but many of us like to learn about it here. We can then take this new to us knowledge and adapt what we like and reject what we don't like. Experience is the best teacher.
Your 2 cents is appreciated Finsky as are the other 2 cents contributed by the other experienced people. And some of the not so experienced as well.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 07:16:56 AM »

I can't wait for spring in Finland  rolleyes
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2007, 08:02:33 AM »

Finsky, it seems that most of the people who use this site keep bees as a hobby.Sincerely, JP

I think that is what I have noticed.  I spend more time at beesource and it seems as though there are more commercial beeks and sideliners over there.  Still nice to get as much perspective as possible.
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2007, 09:26:53 AM »

At this point I would liketo say thank you for all the info. You folks have answered most of my questions before I knew what the question was  Thanks   Tony
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2007, 04:22:57 PM »

I can't wait for spring in Finland  rolleyes
                 COUNT ME IN ON THAT ONE  huh RDY-B
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Shawn
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2007, 05:04:43 PM »

Not sure where this all stimed from but even though I do not yet have bees I have leared a lot from just reading everyones post. I have also gained valuable info from the voice chat. I really dont think you can get enough info to do anything right from just one source. Frisky, if you are trying to say everyone needs to go back to how people use to keep bees back in the day I might agree to a certain point. My son and I are only keeping bees as a hobby and for our own enjoyment of natural honey. I wish we could live in the counrty, have our own chickens, cows, and other animals so we dont have to depend on a grocery store for all our food. But if you are talking about what JP said then maybe money is the source of evil. Maybbe we need more clarification on what you are trying to say. Either way I hope you enjoy life and have a great day.
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DennisB
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 06:01:19 PM »

After reading the article in the newest Bee Culture (I think) about the hobbyist beekeeper terminology versus the part-time / full time terminology I thing that we are all in it for basically the same reason, right? Some just have the time and ability to spend more time with the hives than others. I don't make my living from farming or bees, (I own a hobby store) but you have to admit that none of us would have started into the Hobby, (er.. I mean profession part-time or full-time) if it didn't interest us. The best part about this forum is that there is so much knowledge given without judgment that it is more pleasant to spend time here. I am rambling here so bear with me.
The best thing about knowledge is that one can take it and use whatever bits and pieces might be needed to answer the question at hand.
Whatever skill level or knowledge level we(you) are on, thanks for the answers and keep up the hard work.

DennisB

PS  which one of those containers has the imported honey in it?
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2007, 10:33:32 AM »

Actually, there is a movement beginning to get away from some of the modern "better" ways of farming:
cow antibiotic feed lots vs. grass fed beef
chicken antibiotic packed coops vs. more natural methods
Beehive antibiotic yards vs. more natural methods

In all cases, the modern way definately has a much greater production with lower per-unit costs, but has led to problems (bacterial resistance, anyone?? That is going to be a problem...).  And has led to other countries mimicking what we do best and doing it cheaper (bird-flu?  Hooray!) .  Now it is time to look at the game and redefine what we are doing.  I still buy "modern" chicken and beef, and appreciate the cheapness, but given the option would raise my own the "old" way in a heartbeat.

Quote
It is sad to see, that beginners do not get advices of modern beekeeping. No extractor, no foundation, no wires, not queen selecting.

I think a beginner would benefit from reading a book or two before tackling the issues on a forum like this, exactly because the differences in opinions can be confusing.

But I learned the "modern way".  But I have LOTS LOTS LOTS more fun doing it MY way.  I use some, leave some.  Sometime the "modern" way isn't economical because there i s an economy of scale going on.  Then it is time for the "old" way.

I'm still going to do it the FUN WAY!!!! grin  And I learn lots more that way.  Some foundationless, some plastic, some wired, my own boxes, extractor, cut and crushed comb, but all of it is now done MY way, mistakes and all! rolleyes

Rick
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Finsky
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2007, 10:53:13 AM »

.
I have only 20 hives.  In my country professionals cannot live merely with 500 hives. They must do many other things to get gas to they cars. They sell nucs, other beekeepers honey, beekeeping tools, they have often farmhouse.


Most are hobbiest. Of course they are. Every statistics say that. And most beginners stop very soon they hobby because they do not like it.

I do not wait the spring because it come without my waiting. One day I just say to my wife: it is spring now, have you noticed. Yes, she says, like every spring. Before spring it is long winter.



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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2007, 10:58:48 AM »

Finsky, it seems that most of the people who use this site keep bees as a hobby. It appears that your view is that if you don't do beekeeping for profit and yields it is a waste of time. Is this statement correct? Is this how you see it? If so, then I think I finally understand your thinking.

Sincerely, JP

You know, with my system, I cannot make profit. Hives are too far, too few, too much gasoline bills.

Your statement is  far from correct.

I just ask, that if you have beekeeping as hobby, why it is recommended to nurse bees with 200 years old method.
Of course you do what ever but why just 200 years old is good enough. Why 100 years is not enough?

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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2007, 11:09:47 AM »

But if you are talking about what JP said then maybe money is the source of evil. Maybbe we need more clarification on what you are trying to say. 

Hehe heh heh. We had TV program and they asked "what is the most  beautiful word in the world?"

-- One said :"Monthly salary. It gives all good feelings to every one."

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We have saying in our country: If you are going to be a professional beekeeper, keep your wife in some one else's work. And not let her be sick.

.
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Finsky
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2007, 11:30:56 AM »

.
We have a category

RAPID BEEYARD GROWTH
Turn your backyard Hobby into a viable business


What we have there? Same stuff, long hives and top bars. In Africa it works but not in USA.
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Finsky
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2007, 12:14:18 PM »

.
What is best fun on  forums?

I am a bember of forum Odd Land. It has no rules or moderators. Only what you need is there is vivid imagination. You can collide with others' imagination as much as you want. But we try that it is clever. Sparkling of mind. - I like if some one is humorous trickly people.

But if someone ask how to wire frames. I have no reason to make fun with that question, because I do see not any fun it that issue.
"You need no wires" - What fun is in that, or hobby like? Probably I have not enough imagination.

Some have asked what skill they woud have in their life
- "Pulling from nothing".

Jep, perhaps it is pulling from nothing if you make a hobby from "frames without wires"  grin

.
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2007, 04:00:48 PM »

Finsky Says: "Before I leave for ever this forum, I suggest that you take a look into beekeeping history.  RETURNING BACK TO YOUR FUTURE!"

Well Finsky, for nearly 5 years I have gone to bat dozens and dozens of times for you, once losing 2 moderators over your membership - I don't disagree with your post in the points you make, but the line above bugs me to no end. I have appreciated your knowledge, your prolific writing, your aiding others in their quest to be better beekeepers, and at the loss of moderators early on and several other member - we are talking lots of members who complain about your STYLE, your ruff exterior and your innate ability to always disagree at the drop of a hat (part of your culture you have told me) but let me say this nicely Finsky:


You have been a good contributing member, you have many thousands of posts between Finman and Finsky, and you have fought a good fight with your opinions on the use of small cell and many other topics - but I'm a firm believer that NO MEMBER from Admin to New-bee is greater than the common good of the forum. If you wish to go, then leave sooner than later and save us all the added grief, you sound as if your mere presence is a gift to us here and your message of "before I leave for good" may as well start today rather than to put you through the misery of having to be with us any longer - I guess I didn't realise how much of an inconvenience it was to you to post here.

I'll miss your feisty attitude, but again don't let the forum door hit you in the rear "if leaving" is what you plan to do, I wish you well and I thank you for your service to our community - but don't feel obligated to stay one second longer than you feel comfortable.

Frankly, I wish you hadn't have said that quote above, I know that the B.S. you get is often piled high here, but I had always thought of you as a good spokesman for your views and you took whatever dished out and answered in a logical way that spoke volumes from your views. Sad to see you go Finsky, but if that is your wish, no need to announce it first as you did here - say goodbye to people you have made friends with (or not) and then please feel free to choose to end your membership, I'll gladly approve that and the forum software will erase your membership if that is truly what you want. None of that is my wish, but it seems to be yours.

I wish you well, but the days of me standing up for you are now over - I have fought long and hard, often explaining over and over why you are a grumpy ole' man to the members. In hind-site, I see you never needed my help, you are a big boy capable of handling himself and my making excuses for you is futile. Sorry to see you go, and I surely wouldn't boot you unless you toss some zingers on the way out - sorry again you feel this way, but if you think this forums members are 200 years behind the time, maybe this truly isn't the place for you any longer.

Best wishes, I don't regret ever sticking up for you, I think you are very knowledged in what you do and say - but obviously you think you are beating your head against the wall here, and even a thick head can get damaged if you bang it against the wall too often. Best wishes Finsky whether you stay or go, I wish you well.



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Shawn
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2007, 06:12:29 PM »

Finsky,

Really dont know what you are trying to say and would probably think this thread is not going anywhere.
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2007, 09:04:17 PM »

Kittaa te ajaski avian sinun auttaa. I KIRJAIN koetella hukka kotona sinun laivavouro.I KIRJAIN jalkisaados ei unohtaa sinun advice. You hankkia kokoonpantu we noyrtya student,but kopea beekeeper.

            Just a thank you in finmans native tounge.
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Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2007, 12:13:48 AM »

Finsky,

Really dont know what you are trying to say and would probably think this thread is not going anywhere.

That old stupid answer  cheesy

.
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Finsky
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2007, 12:39:42 AM »

Finsky Says: "Before I leave for ever this forum, I suggest that you take a look into beekeeping history.  RETURNING BACK TO YOUR FUTURE!"

Well Finsky, for nearly 5 years I have gone to bat dozens and dozens of times for you,


Yes, I have mostly liked this forum. But the mesh, which has happened between the styles of beekeeping, is grazy.  We have many cars like Mercedes, Toyota, Opel. You cannot mix the parts. It will not work.

And those eager rookies who deliver hundreds of wrong advices ......should I shoot the advicer or advices ..I prefer to shoot the advicer.

I have seen that the members like natural beekeeping, but where are those Ordinary style beekeepers which want to use newest knowledge.

I am strongly that opinion that when one year old beekeeper ask help, Michael's "nature knows best" style is not right one. He gives often awfull answers, like 200 years had polished away.

And that huge mite discussion here, over and over --- awful, just awful

Thanks that you put my memorial onto forum.

Quote
once losing 2 moderators over your membership

 grin, After all, why din't you kick them onto a r s e before. They were very lazy.



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Angi_H
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« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2007, 01:09:02 AM »

You know I have not been here long but here in a forum it is for learning and for making friends and a place to come when you need help. Not for being bashed or duped down for being new. If you are that upset and are that disheartned  about being here then leave and dont post again. But yet you type that and you stay. Yes we want to due new ways and turn the  new leaf on the ways of doing things. But there comes a time when natural or going back a few years to the way thing used to be done is the right way to do the wrong that we did. Like most of us going back green by trying to not usu chemicals and antibiotics and bad things that are hurting our enviroment and have gotten Mother Earth in an Up Roar. We are loosing valuable Wildlife and animals that may never be here again EVER if we do not change our ways and go back to doing things like they used to which worked. Otherwise there will be no more MOTHER EARTH for our kids grandkids to have. Sorry I had to say this as a new person a Vet Tech and A Wildlife Conservationist I had to say what was bugging me. You will be missed but please do not drag it out any longer. Can we please lock this post so that it dosnt continue. I read all of the new posts every night and to see this one continue when they say they are leaving is just ....... I dont know wrong. Sorry but I had to say my words before I exploded

Angi
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Finsky
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« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2007, 02:53:27 AM »

Like most of us going back green by trying to not usu chemicals and antibiotics and bad things that are hurting our enviroment and have gotten Mother Earth in an Up Roar.

I have noticed. When I se word Mother Earth, I lift the safer.

Quote
We are loosing valuable Wildlife and animals that may never be here again EVER if we do not change our ways and go back to doing things like they used to which worked. Otherwise there will be no more MOTHER EARTH for our kids grandkids to have. Sorry I had to say this as a new person a Vet Tech and A Wildlife Conservationist

I cannot help it with beekeping. That is another story.

I have worked 14 years in Environmentlat protection in capital city City Council, and I know something about issue. My hobby is to use information and branes what ever I do.

If you want to avoid chemicals in beekeeping, stop the beekeeping right now. They are inventing tens of new chemicals every day. You cannot run away them.

.

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« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2007, 08:27:18 AM »

Finsky, you've almost convinced me to build a top-bar hive!!!  grin  No wires, no frames, no foundation!
 tongue
Just because it sounds like fun!!!  And is cheap, and I have very little to lose trying it (recycled lumber, free swarm bees, and a little time).

Sometimes we use our jeep to drive to work. the quickest, fastest, shortest way.  Sometimes we take it off roads into the woods, around trees and up hills, the longest way JUST BECAUSE WE CAN AND ITS FUN!!!

So you've been through it all through the years, and you've arrived at your style and your way.  Why not provide your good sound advice, but let the others go through their own journeys and find their own style and their own way?  I like it when people take my advice, but also recognize that with so many different people they all have different styles that work for them.

There is more than one way to skin a cat!! grin

I do enjoy reading your posts, though, now that i've gotten used to your style!
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« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2007, 10:42:04 AM »

Hi ,   IMHO one of the greatest inventions in modern beekeeping has to be the internet with beekeepers forums like this one .   Where we as beekeepers can meet to share ideas, and report what does and doesn't work for us and why , and to do this in a congenial spirit of respect and helpfulness .  People , we have something really good happening here and let's keep our perspective .  We all stand to gain something worthwhile from each other .  Even an adult can learn from a little child if he or she is open to learning.  Knowledge is the assimulation of facts .  Wisdom is knowing what to do with knowledge . And wisdom is it's own reward .                                  ---Burl---
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« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2007, 12:05:58 PM »

burl, you got it!  a wise person listens to everything, but does not try everything.  they take info and adapt it to their own circumstances. 

as a society, we have lost the ability to do any kind of lateral thinking.  we grasp an idea and run with it, never looking past the immediate.

i have learned a lot from both finsky and MB.  i do not think that either of them do things as i will do them.  as i learn, i will take from all, the things that work for me.  the trick is to sift though and think about what you are learning and what the impact will be on your own yard.

we should not demonize those who are frustrated with the 'organic' beekeeping, nor should those who choose to treat their hives be constantly told they are poisoning the earth-bees-whatever.....
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« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2007, 12:55:37 PM »

If the "teaching" was intended to help fellow beekeepers, then it's all good.

If it is intended to antagonize, belittle, or insult, then it is bad.

-John
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 07:29:29 PM by pdmattox » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2007, 02:58:21 PM »

This thread makes me sad.
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« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2007, 05:00:38 PM »

A-MEN
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2007, 01:12:24 AM »

It is nice and makes sun shine every day, but those who has planned extra money via beekeeping will be misleaded into deep marsh.


Mmmm, marsh honey!



 grin

Yo Finsky ~> Internet forums are societal microcosms that provide a free market exchange of ideas.  As with everything in life, caveat emptor.  I would humbly suggest to not put such a burden on yourself that you must relentlessly counter what you feel is bad or erroneous advice.  The truth always has a way of revealing itself. 

Regarding the format and/or purpose of this forum, the only thing I'm certain that I have in common with anyone else who might post and/or read here is an interest in bees (& that's enough).   Beemaster has provided this resource free of charge (last I checked!, lol).   I believe he has a sections for "suggestions/improvements" (admin forum).   It may be more proper form to offer any constructive criticism there as opposed to in a final parting post.  That being said, if you've found this site unbearable there are other bee forums to patronize or you could easily make your own.. for free ~> ForumUp.  Perhaps there is a niche' interest for whatever specific category of beekeeping you're primarily focused upon?  "Finsky's beekeeping financial planning forum for the easily mislead and marsh-averse"?  afro 

So...plenty of options (give thanks).

Cheers!
Dane

Ps. lots of good points on the above posts!
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« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2007, 09:49:25 PM »

As I understand it this form is for all with an intrest in bees ..   ...    ....    As for the 200 year thing ,,, I understand smoke was used 200 years ago ..YES  .I use smoke so that means I'm Useing things from 200 years ago ... because it works for me........    thats what makes bee keeping intreasting ... what works for one may not bee the next persons thing ......  A lot of new Ideas do NOT work as good or better than the old      BUT  you seem to miss the point ,,,,, I have wanted bees from the age of 10 ,, at that time I lived were bees would not have been  wecome ,,,   45 years later I now live were I can have bees ,,,    but most of all things have changed in my life ,,  so now I have them and  can ENJOY having them ...   surprising enough that my Wife ,  kids ,  grand kids   are also enjoying them ,.... do I have 20 hives Huh NO !!  But I do enjoy what hives  I have ,YES. and that is why I have hives ,,not to make money ...  I have to learn how to take care of a few ,, befor I can even think of having 20  ....you say   ( In real life we have short of veterinary in Finland. They are using their time with pet cats and docs and they have not time to take care of farm animals. This forum has same problem.>>> One hive and she/he is a beekeeper.<<<< )
 And that brings me to wounder ,, If no one helped you when you started ,,,,were and how did you learn Huh??    and are ALL your ways the new way Huh??   did you start with 20 hives ??
Were is the line to bee called  a bee keeper  30 hives  ----40 hives Huh maybe the one with 200 hives plus  ,,,,,   does not  think 20 hives make you a bee keeper ...
just my 2 cents
the kid
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wayne
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2007, 10:14:02 PM »

  I can see Finsky's point. And understand his frustration, when basic questions and knowledge are either argued or overlooked.
  I belong to, and have dropped out of, several forums that just went against what I was after.
  I'm a trapper. And a darn good one at that, for the last 30 years I made my living as a trapper.  I do what's called ADC or damage control trapping. On site after site I found my opinions and advice attacked and ridiculed because I was a "Money Trapper". I made money at it so I was somehow contaminating the "sport".
  I see that same thing here, and on most beek sites.
  The 2 hive hobby beek attacks the large beek, the honey harvester attacks the pollinator, when someone asks about finding a bulk market they get snide remarks about how dumb they must be or how to set up a roadside table. And some, as always, assume that they are always right.
  To some beekeeping is, or should be, a money making venture. To others it an almost religious experience that cannot be tarnished by such worldly endeavors. With most some where in the middle.
  Perhaps what's needed is more sites for each view of the activity. Or more tolerance for each persons goals.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2007, 11:48:03 PM »

Time to chime in with my few feeble thoughts:
I abhore intolerence and Have taken Finsky to task for his more than once, but there is much in what he advocates that I recommend.
Do I agree with everything he says--NO!  I keep an open mind and evaluate what is said and apply what I think will work in my climate, in my beeyard of 4 hives.  I think that is what everyone should be doing.  Sharing what works, what doesn't work, mistakes, Eureka moments, etc., is what this forum is all about and from it all we all glean a bit of knowledge. 

I'm probably one of those whom Finsky believes is reverting back the stated 200 years.  I don't think I am, but I'm constantly being reminded that the things my mentor taught me (he started beekeeping in 1899) is still valid and often a more prudent method of beekeeping than what many advocate in today's modern world.  I've also decided to go green, letting the bees do what comes naturally and with as little active interference from me as I can.  I manage the hives by doing specific tasks and procedures like requeening, supering, etc., when necessary but I do not and will not use artificial treatments or equipment in my hives.  If that makes me a bad beekeeper in some books--so be it. 

I also have a tendency to answer the questions asked because knowing the answer imparts information.  Even if the answer to the question is what I believe to be bad beekeeping, I still answer the question.  Finsky hates it when I do that, saying, "why give bad answer?"  I just answered why, but to say it a little differently, even incorrect information can be valuable if someone learns from it.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
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