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Author Topic: What is usefull in beekeeping learning  (Read 4461 times)
Finsky
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« on: December 12, 2007, 01:50:04 AM »


 All the opinions here are good and necessary for a new beekeeper like me to learn.

Jep. Every beekeepers has his own truth. That is why you must select your own way, what ever it happens. You learn via mistake. "A Finnish does not believe before he see himself" .

I am a litte bit tired on beekeeping after these 45 years. Difficult to find new interesting things. And I do not run after all what others say.

I have omitted a "value for beekeeping strategy"
1) All, which does not add yield, is waste
2) All what is fun and makes me happy, is not waste
3) The rest is apitherapy

To learn via others experience = read, discuss. When you have learned enough, you have skill to select what is right and what is wrong and what is usefull. Everything is valuable and right, that is pure nonsence.

Learning = gathering tools into box
Use own brains = pick a right tool from box in right situation.

No experience = pick right tool in wrong situation.

And tolls in beekeeping - awfully much. No sence to try them all. 
Whole world is full of good cars. You cannot bye and try them many.

After my experience not more than  10% is useful in this forum.  Some interesting questions are discussed again and again and most of essential issues are not interesting. This is like grinding clay. Most forum space go to resist varroa and it is easiest  problem noewadays. 20 seconds per hive per year and no problem. Writing about varroa takes days or even weeks.

I was told that all opinions here are as valuable. That is basic nonsence I have ever read, if you really want to understand bees.

Bees and beekeeping is complex hobby. That is why I like it.  1/3 depends on skills, 1/3 weather and 1/3 lucky. 
There are some issues which I have not learned like good pastures. They surprises me every year when I have selected "best pastures".  Weathers are what they are.

Varroa -not problem to me . Good chemicals
Spring = too few willows, too much hives on my yard
Spring build up = really fast with electrict + pollen patty
AFB = a big problem
Chalkbrood = 20 year problem but not any more
Nosema = always doing harms in winter
Wintering = never been big problem
Feeding sugar= never been a problem
Selling honey in good price = problem every year
Extracting honey = work to me, not funny
Uncapping honey = no problem
Melting old combs = uuh, not funny
Boiling frames in lye = what an odor
foundation - never been a problem.
burr - it is what is
swarming = biggest enemy
Stinging bees - 20 stings per day and queen will be  dead
queen breeding = you select the queen, not hives.
Feral bees - some escaped swarm
Local = Texas is 3 times that of Finland

Hive color = bees return home what ever color it is.

Raising new queens = happiest thing every year
Moving heavy hives alone = routine (  I like heavy hives!)

Visiting every week on beeyard = 100 miles driving = 60 US $ money = a good reason to go to summer cottage


**************

About cars. I hear an sosialist joke. (20 years ago)

US man and Russian talked who has biggest things.
- US said that we have so big cattle pastures that it takes several days to drive them around
- Russian: we have those cars too.


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Understudy
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2007, 09:20:17 AM »

Varroa -not problem to me . Good chemicals
Varroa no problem to me no chemicals
Quote
Spring = too few willows, too much hives on my yard
Spring build up = really fast with electrict + pollen patty
No spring build up here no pollen patties.
Quote
AFB = a big problem
Chalkbrood = 20 year problem but not any more
Nosema = always doing harms in winter
AFB is a small to medium problem
Chaulkbrood is not a real problem here
Nosema is not a problem for me in costa rica and S. America I am being told it is a big problem
Chillbrood is not a real problem here.
Quote
Wintering = never been big problem
Feeding sugar= never been a problem
Neither are a problem here. No winter. No sugar.
Quote
Selling honey in good price = problem every year
Same here
Quote
Extracting honey = work to me, not funny
Not a problem for me but I am only dealing with seven hives. I can see it becoming one as Hives get bigger.
Quote
Uncapping honey = no problem
Melting old combs = uuh, not funny
Uncapping no problem here either
Melting old comb is no problem I toss it in the solar melter and after it melts I toss the slumgum.
Quote
Boiling frames in lye = what an odor
Never done that. If you could explain.
Quote
foundation - never been a problem.
No problem here. It's either permacomb or starter strips.
Quote
burr - it is what is
It's like a tool. You use it to help. If you contol burr, it doesn't control you.
Quote
swarming = biggest enemy
Agreed
Quote
Stinging bees - 20 stings per day and queen will be  dead
I tend to be more forgiving. weather, recent robbing, and other factors can make a hive hostile. If the queen lays well and the hive is gathering. I tend to be okay with it. Hot hives hives that are nasty on multiple occasions get divided and requeened.
Quote
queen breeding = you select the queen, not hives.
I don't breed. They either do so normally or I buy them.
Quote
Feral bees - some escaped swarm
AHB according to all the scaremongers here.
Quote
Local = Texas is 3 times that of Finland
Finland 130,558 sq. miles  Florida  58,560 sq. miles that makes you bigger.
Quote
Hive color = bees return home what ever color it is.
Agreed
Quote
Raising new queens = happiest thing every year
I haven't really gone into queen raising.
Quote
Moving heavy hives alone = routine (  I like heavy hives!)
I like healthy full easy to lift hives. An 9 frame medium can be full and not be as heavy as a ten frame deep.
Quote
Visiting every week on beeyard = 100 miles driving = 60 US $ money = a good reason to go to summer cottage
Walk into back yard. No gas money.


Sincerely,
Brendhan
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2007, 10:04:34 AM »

I realize this could violate rule #1, but why not try a few hives the organic way Finsky. Just for kicks. It would be "fun" to try a new twist to an old hobbby. Maybe w/ your general knowledge, you will discover something new and beneficial or debunk the idea. the result isn't the goal, but the journey is. To quote you, better to be an eagle for one day...You know so much, it would certainly be a better "test" than if i did it for example. Just thinking out loud is all...
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2007, 10:12:10 AM »

Finsky, nice and interesting post.  Personally, I don't know how you can be bored with beekeeping, it is always about learning and learning more, you know you have lots more to learn too, hee, hee.  All comments are interesting on the forum.

About the rules.  My Husband has a set and firm rule.  It is Rule #6, he is going to have it tatooed on his chest.

RULE #6 -- don't take yourself so seriously.

Have a beautiful and wonderful day, enjoy this life we live.  Cindi
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2007, 10:19:12 AM »

it is always about learning and learning more, you know you have lots more to learn too, hee, hee.

After 7 years beekeeping I did not get big surprises.  Some says that they have learner all in 2 years.


Quote
All comments are interesting on the forum.

You must have without of sence of quality  rolleyes

Quote
Ab

RULE #6 -- don't take yourself so seriously.

Why?

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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 10:26:25 AM »

but why not try a few hives the organic way Finsky. Just for kicks.

I get kicks enough when I read you posts. What is idea to study biology in Universiity and then act like never seen elementary shool?  shocked

I try to adapt newest knowlegde, not 200 years old.

When I started beekeeping it was so organic, so organic.  My extractor was self made, long hives, swarms, nonselected bees, everything. I carry my firsts hives to 10 miles distance to forest pastures  with bicycle.





 It would be "fun" to try a new twist to an old hobbby. Maybe w/ your general knowledge, you will discover something new and beneficial or debunk the idea. the result isn't the goal, but the journey is. To quote you, better to be an eagle for one day...You know so much, it would certainly be a better "test" than if i did it for example. Just thinking out loud is all...
[/quote]
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 11:31:47 AM »

I equate this to fishing, which I do a lot. The best and most efficent way to fish is w/ a trawler. Than nets etc. Notwithstanding this, I still enjoy flyfishing. Very inefficient and time consuming and I catch less fish. But more rewarding.
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 01:28:08 PM »

Quote
I am a litte bit tired on beekeeping after these 45 years. Difficult to find new interesting things. And I do not run after all what others say.

I agree.  After 4 years, unless I keep experimenting and thinking of my own ways and trying new stuff other people think of, it would not be so much fun.  Fun = no waste, even when the yield isn't there.

What fun is it to just follow the instructions out of a book anyway??? grin

I think that summarizes the other 90% of what we do here on the forum. cool

One of these years, I might experiment and try to do some heating of the hives in the early spring and see what happens Smiley.  Some guy on the forum tried it and says it work great tongue.  I haven't seen that in any books though....

Rick
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Finsky
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2007, 01:59:03 PM »

I might experiment and try to do some heating of the hives in the early spring and see what happens Smiley.

That is funny thing. Old beekeeper  told me 1962 that how he accelerate with electric lamp heat spring build up. It took 40 years when I took that into use when I was forced to that. During all those years I thought that I should try it how it works. Jep, it works fine with pollen patty feeding. And the biggest hives get best advantage and almost all say that they do not need.  Jep too, bees need not electric. tongue
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annette
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2007, 02:25:24 PM »

"Quote
All comments are interesting on the forum. (quote from Annette)"

You must have without of sence of quality - (quote from Finsky)"


I believe I am a person of utmost quality, but I still like reading all the different ways beekeepers do things here. Yes, I am a new beekeeper who needs to learn and learn and learn. I am still absorbing information and will probably be doing this for many years.

I think you are burned out on this forum Finsky. I think you are burned out with beekeeping. Just like old physicians who never want to learn new ways with medicine. Do not mean to be rude, just an observation.

Annette
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2007, 06:52:14 PM »

I think one of the most frustrating things is to watch other people bumble through something you can do well yourself. It takes a lot of patience to guide new people over and over through the same mistakes. For Finsky to have 45 years of experience, and be here offering advice, is impressive. Any teacher is going to get frustrated, burn out, and be short when every new learner treads on old, failed ground. I'd rather have some sarcasm and 45+ years of experienced advice than to be wandering blindly (not to minimize the contribution of the other experienced beeks here, of course...I'm just making a general point).
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2007, 07:58:39 PM »

Finsky, have a sip of your favorite vodka and chill out some. You sound stressed. I think you may need a vacation, then its back to the bees. You wouldn't have 45 yrs of experience with bees if you didn't enjoy it, right? We all need a break sometimes. What else do you do for fun, besides beekeeping? I would like to know.

Sincerely, JP
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2007, 12:42:28 AM »

"

I think you are burned out on this forum Finsky. I think you are burned out with beekeeping. Just like old physicians who never want to learn new ways with medicine. Do not mean to be rude, just an observation.



It seems that Anette has English background because she has harsh humour. (I would pray for that)

Yes, I have never learned nothing. That is only sad thing in my life. "Happy are those wood heads because they will not sink".

I just say that I have dated my old wisdom from internet with new researches. Do I take my knowledge to grave yard.

Yes, I like to share my experience and knowledge here but I see that people are fond of tricks which are the most odd and non practical. I can see from view numbers that nothing ordinary is interesting.  I pay nothing about "macig", "organic" or "sustainable" or "mite calculations".

You know, Finland is so near nature that we here are not so exited about "organic things".  50 years ago over 50% of adult people worked as farmers. Now only 4-5%. Our roost are very near to nature and farming. We need not imagination to reach the real nature. It is close by.

Many people in Finland starved on 1960 - decade. 10% moved then to Sweden. Yes Brian is right, we are almost under development country some time ago. 

Perhaps I do not teach you but I like to save your hives and properties. Nowadays I liket o play with stocks. I bye advices.

Many say that " If I want that people listen to me". It is same what they do. No one pay me salary here. Many have asked me to continue because many like my advices. 

In Finnish forum some are that opinion too that I have learned nothing. Yes, I started at the age of 15 and since then I have learned nothing. Still I beat most of you in average honey yield even if I live at the level of Anghorage, and with fabulous Italian bees.

****************






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Finsky
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2007, 12:47:28 AM »

What else do you do for fun, besides beekeeping? I would like to know.


My 20 hives are 100 miles away from my city home. I cannot tease them all the time. The rest of my life I spend watching  TV , playing stocks and scratching myself.

Every time when Wall Street goes 2% up, I will be 1000 $ richer and when it goes down, I will be 1000 $ poorer. That is my miserable  life.

http://money.cnn.com/data/world_markets/  . Seems bad this day. Dam Wall Street! ( but only one dam, 3 -5 is bad)

.
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2007, 01:23:44 AM »

I hope people dont take Santas post the wrong way. Hes up there in basically the artic, been raising bees successfully for 40 years, most people couldnt even raise a snowman up there. So any advice he offers is sound advice. I think sometimes people want to be told a complicated elongated answer of remedies that involve mixing and measuring and counting and all that jazz. I think they have trouble sometimes accepting advice when its succintly put.

What Im saying is when someone like Finsky tells you the drill, you should be thankful to have got an answer from someone like him so easily.

Sometimes his message gets lost in translation to some who might not have dealt with people whos english is a second language. Im lucky that I dont have that problem and also blessed that I get his sense of humour.

There are many levels of knowledge in here. Me, Im a beginner. There are lots of "experienced" beekeepers, a few "advanced" but not many professors like Finsky. So, pick the thing you know most about, being a mom, fixing cars, stock market, computers etc. Then imagine being in a forum where its open slather discussion, none of that deleting posts and redirecting stuff, and being the professor in a class of morons where every post is basically a repeat of one somewhere else over the years. Imagine that you have answered most of these questions before and theres no one really here on your wave length. However you battle away, really because you have a lot of knowledge to share, its a struggle, its driving you crazy but you live in the hope that a few will get the message and someone will occasionally be interesting.

Thats the vibe I get anyway.

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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 03:52:13 AM »

.
I think, that  I have found the essential better and better. My learning have gone backwards all the time but my average yield have raised 4-fold during that time.  Oh boy, does it means that nature knows best.  During two yield months I tear 160 lbs honey per hive. 

Five years ago I renewed my system and average yield jumped 80%.  Sorry, it was pure accident.

And that sustainable or natural beekeeping - I burn every week over 10 gallons gasoline for bees. Forget all nice words and economy!
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« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 05:13:01 AM »

One example, who is able to omit new information

We talk much about worker queens. I have offered these studies about worker laying to this forum, but I have not seen that it has any affect on members. They tell again and again same what I have read from 50 years old book. Shake shake and shake.

http://www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/aps323/ConflictInBeeHive.pdf

That fhenomenom was found over 10 years ago, but it has not reached any beekeeping forum or new beekeeping book, what I have seen. sigh!

When researchers have measured the number of ready-to-lay workers' ovaries, they have found that 5-24% of workers in colony are "worker queens".

I noticed my self years ago that the huge number of worker eggs during one day cannot be result of one worker queen. And I noticed too that when I put normal brood frame into nuc, they stopped worker laying. 

And what has been interesting when I have learned to test queenless hive. Put the larva frame into the hive and hive reveal itself.
I have wondered that that they have not the queen but they do not raise queen cells. - But later,  I have found strange coloured queen which was really difficult among workers.  This have happened many times.

 Why every one want pleasant answer to his/her question: "One mad can ask more than 10 wise can answer."


.
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JP
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 05:50:28 AM »

Mick, I understand your sentiments, but also understand this, and I hope I can speak for others here on the forums, beekeeping is not, and should not be, a race nor a competition, in my humble opinion, to see who can do more, faster, or better, or best. To a lot of us here, its about the journey of beekeeping. This is a happy forum where we share what is dear to our hearts, we are passionate about beekeeping and for most here its just a wonderful hobby that enriches our lives.

As for For Finsky, I try to find the best in people, yes there is the thing and its a big thing, about english not being his first language, so sometimes his comments seem abusive and sometimes they may not just seem to be, it could be how he really is conveying himself, his personality, his true beliefs, so I look for the good, but it is difficult sometimes when it looks like people are being bashed by insensitive comments.

I'm sorry to you Finsky for talking about you as if you're not here, but I think you can handle it, and I do wanna say, I do find your comments, although somewhat insensitive at times, to be thought provoking. I will listen to someone who has 45 yrs experience beekeeping, I will view what you have to say with an open mind, but please, try to be nice. Thanks as always, for sharing.

Sincerely, JP
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2007, 08:43:08 AM »

Mick, holy smokers!!!!  What a mouthful.  You have said alot of very good sentences about how this man more than likely feels and perceives things.  Good.  Yes, I agree with you on the point that when one excels and has had a myriad of experience on a particular subject, and then trying to teach these lessons to people that do not have too much experience,  is indeed an art form, in my eyes.

It is difficult to speak over and over about subjects that have been discussed and discussed, but then you have to also remember that many readers on this forum have not read all the previous data about many subjects.  So to them, the repeated information is new information.  I, for one too, love the advice that comes from these keepers of bees that have been so doing for decades (and there are quite a few on our forum).  Their input is definitely worthy of reading and listening to, learning from their experience.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, love our great planet, Earth.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2007, 09:18:47 AM »


It is difficult to speak over and over about subjects that have been discussed and discussed, but ....

I have thinked over this too. It should be some gathered leaflet, where procedure or something has gathered, like artificial insemination.

And it is awfull to see, that what ever say, nothing will change. Oxalic acid trickling was a one which did not soaked into head. People prefered to make their own  receipt ad hoc than follow researches advice. When this happens again and again, needless to ask me to be nice. Everyone's opinion is as valuable. That is biggest nonsence what I have ever heard.  Beekeeping professor's experience is as valuble as one hive rookie owner's opinion. And it must be explained ten times and nothing helps.  Don't ask me to be nice, I am not in certain cases.

But I think that it is better leave you again to resonance with each other. Intelligence quotient will rise both in American forum and Finnish forum.

.
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2007, 02:41:21 PM »

Wow Finsky, you've definitely said a mouthful. I wish you well on your journey. Just think if all of your teachers 45 yrs ago decided that all of your pondering and questioning was a waste of their time and sent you on your way. I can only say thank you to Michael Bush and Brian who are here to lend a hand and share their extensive knowledge with us, every day. These people are unselfish and make our days sunnier. Too bad you don't feel the same way.

Sincerely, JP
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2007, 04:23:31 PM »

Wow ............
Sincerely, JP


Don't take it personally if Santa does not come. It was  Russian migG



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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2007, 09:28:49 PM »



> Don't take it personally if Santa does not come. It was  Russian mig

 Ok, I won't take it personally. You want to be nice and have some vodka?

Sincerely, JP
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2007, 03:10:29 PM »

Finsky, I want to strongly stress that I wish you to continue posting so that I continue to improve my beekeeping skills. It is amazing that someone with a few years of experience in beekeeping knows everything and try to teach someone with forty-five years experience.
  With teachings from your statements I realize the potential of a strong hive. Just a small beekeeper ( twelve production hives in an Urban setting) but this year my goal per hive is two hundred lbs of honey each. Came close last year but for collecting pollen and Comb honey for established customers from a few hives. Paid very well but some hives must do better for the average.
  I thank you for your advise and knowledge.  Jerry Kern  Des Moines, Iowa
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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2007, 03:28:50 PM »

but some hives must do better for the average.


Thanks your sayings!

You have too pastures and not many competitors nearby?

Yard has allways it's differencies. It is vain effort to try that they all are good. Still I try every year. My experience is that when I have the best hive, the average is half of the best.

Figures may be   the best 360 lbs, average 160, the worst 80 lbs.
Some hives' build up comes later and some  are a month ahead others. That makes a big diffrence in yield.


When some hives are weak, I unite them for main flow. They forage as well as good ones.
When it is very heavy nectar flow, big hives are superion to handle big yields: carry, dry up, store and arrange room for brood.
If laying area is short, they start to think swarming. 

When you drive stong hive tactics, you must have a stock which is not eager to swarm.
The main key is however good queens.  It is hard job to keep them good, but interesting.



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JerryJ
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2007, 10:34:36 PM »

When some hives are weak, I unite them for main flow. They forage as well as good ones. Quote from Finsky.
  Finsky, When you combine the weak hives, do you replace both Queens with a new queen? By the time of main flow I have several Nucs from best of last years hives, open mated.    Thanks  Jerry
  I put two that kind of hives together for main yield and I prefer to use bad queen during main yield.   From different post by Finsky
                                                Jerry
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Finsky
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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2007, 04:55:37 AM »

When some hives are weak, I unite them for main flow. They forage as well as good ones. Quote from Finsky.
  Finsky, When you combine the weak hives, do you replace both Queens with a new queen? By the time of main flow I have several Nucs from best of last years hives, open mated.    Thanks  Jerry
  I put two that kind of hives together for main yield and I prefer to use bad queen during main yield.   From different post by Finsky
                                                Jerry

It is same what I shoose because they fight for life. But if I have to shoose, I prefer the worst one.

Often I have weak hives which has spended queen, but it had not enough time to build  up a good colony. If I give more workers and queen is splended, colony fills it's hive with new brood. 

With bad queen they have small brood area and most of bees concenrate themselves into honey work.

My main yield is 3-4 weeks long , and I do not want that that time colony raises new bees for nothing before autumn. I have kept often the hive without the queen over main yiled but It seems that it is not allways good idea. Some hives loose their foraging energy.   

I change all queens after yield season.  This year I changed most of queens after winter feeding.

********************

3 year ago I put together two weak hives which has boath new byed marked queen. When took honey away in late summer, boath queen were laying in small patch in uppermost super.

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CBEE
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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2007, 11:05:59 AM »

Finsky,
I understand what you are saying and what I have seen it applies to virtually every internet forum I belong to. I would say only about 10% of the information on any of them is usefull. It's not hard to get tired of seeing the same thing over and over and sometimes its from the same people that just dont understand, refuse to listen or think by some miracle someone will add something NEW to what has already been said 100 times. There are people in every forum that post something just to post and what is said has no or little value to learning anything. I have found most forums to be mostly a social gathering place. Not every one has the same confidence of what they are doing as you  and a lot of times people need reassurance that they are doing the right thing or that what they are seeing is really ok. Not everyone has the same observation, perseption or learning ability and after 45 years of doing anything you are not going to find a lot to trip your trigger about whatever you're doing.  grin
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DennisB
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2007, 06:02:55 PM »

Hear Hear!!

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asprince
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2007, 07:10:37 PM »

Please be patient with us mortals.

Steve
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Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resembalance to the first. - Ronald Reagan
rdy-b
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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2007, 10:16:09 PM »

 cheesy 8-)CBEE for president
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Finsky
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2007, 03:10:13 AM »

Please be patient with us mortals.

Steve
It is only your head ace.
Teaching happens only if someone need advice.
If not, no help even if angels tell  it to you.

adult people search a such information which support your earlier attitude.

so, i go out to cut christmas tree.

.
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