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Author Topic: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .  (Read 3454 times)

Offline utahbeekeeper

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So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« on: November 16, 2007, 06:18:36 PM »
. . . . when it is drizzled into a steaming cup of herb tea? 
Pleasant words are like an honeycomb, sweet to the soul and health to the bones.  Prov 16:24

Offline Mici

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 06:22:41 PM »
yes, don't put honey into anything heated over 40°C or else...you might as well put a teaspoon of sugar (medicinal aspect)

Offline sean

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 06:48:38 PM »
so i've really been wasting my time putting it into my tea :?

Offline kathyp

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 06:51:16 PM »
it tastes good.  that's not a waste!  i don't like sugar in my tea, but i will put a little lemon and honey in sometimes.
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Offline JP

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 08:00:35 PM »
Utah, what's better to put in your tea, raw honey or store bought? I thought so.
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2007, 01:33:01 AM »
LETS se what the ole Wikapedia has to say :loll:  Raw honey Honey as it exists in the beehive or as obtained by extraction, settling or straining without adding heat above 120 degrees fahrenheit.  you be the judge  ;)  thats 48.8 C  RDY-B

Offline Dane Bramage

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2007, 03:11:48 PM »
Short answer = yes, it ceases to be raw in steaming hot tea.  How much of a concern is that for you?  That is a personal issue. 
In my personal diet I take special care never to heat anything above ~110°F so as not to destroy the enzymes. 

I've read that, after boiling, tea should be steeped until it cools to about 130°F in ~ 20minutes, prior to serving. (this tea etiquette is completely foreign to me, lol).  If you really want to ensure your honey remains 100% raw and enzymatically active, you could measure the temperature of the liquid prior to adding.  Maybe doing that once or twice and then simply allowing the same amount of cooling time or gaging it by tasting for future convenience.   

Again, tepid may not be your cup of tea (couldn't resist the pun!).  I drink a lot of home-brewed iced-tea beverages/blends.

Prost!
Dane


Offline reinbeau

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2007, 06:01:36 PM »
I've read that, after boiling, tea should be steeped until it cools to about 130°F in ~ 20minutes, prior to serving.

That would make horribly strong, stewed tasting tea, of any sort.

Black tea should be made with boiling water, steeped for 3-5 minutes.  Oolong should be made with boiling water, steeped for 5-8 minutes.  Green tea should be made with water that is 180° - the little bubbles are just starting to rise to the surface) and steeped for 3 minutes.  All of these teas can be rebrewed, the taste is different for each cup (oolong rebrewed is especially interesting, it brings out some subtle undertones that don't shine through on the first brewing).  Can you tell I love tea?

Quote
(this tea etiquette is completely foreign to me, lol).  If you really want to ensure your honey remains 100% raw and enzymatically active, you could measure the temperature of the liquid prior to adding.  Maybe doing that once or twice and then simply allowing the same amount of cooling time or gaging it by tasting for future convenience. 

Now I wonder about this.  The fluid you're 'overheating' the honey with stays with the honey.  I should think if you drank it quickly enough you'd still get most of the goodness of the honey. As for tepid tea, nah, I don't think so.  A nice piping hot cuppa is a pleasure I won't mess with  :-P

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Again, tepid may not be your cup of tea (couldn't resist the pun!).  I drink a lot of home-brewed iced-tea beverages/blends.

Sun brewed iced tea is awesome, I make it all summer.  The sun is too weak now to do it - have to wait til next spring.

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Offline Dane Bramage

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2007, 04:07:03 PM »
I've read that, after boiling, tea should be steeped until it cools to about 130°F in ~ 20minutes, prior to serving.

That would make horribly strong, stewed tasting tea, of any sort.

Black tea should be made with boiling water, steeped for 3-5 minutes.  Oolong should be made with boiling water, steeped for 5-8 minutes.  Green tea should be made with water that is 180° - the little bubbles are just starting to rise to the surface) and steeped for 3 minutes.  All of these teas can be rebrewed, the taste is different for each cup (oolong rebrewed is especially interesting, it brings out some subtle undertones that don't shine through on the first brewing).  Can you tell I love tea?

Indeed - that is why I said "(this tea etiquette is completely foreign to me)".  Here's the source.  Perhaps it's a specific technique/custom tea?  (who knows... or cares... lol).   

The fluid you're 'overheating' the honey with stays with the honey. 
:?

I should think if you drank it quickly enough you'd still get most of the goodness of the honey.

If the end solution (honey dissolved in tea) is above 110F, enzymes will perish.  How long can various enzymes survive and at what temps?  That's likely a moot question as those who want something truly raw would not subject their honey to the high temps in the first place and those unconcerned with enzyme's role in health and diet would be unlikely to gulp hot tea just to potentially save a small %.   

However, if there's a scientific curiosity,  I believe the following formula would be a decent approximation for the effects upon the enzymes:

First, the enzymes present in honey (invertase, diastase, glucose oxidase, etc.,) and their respective (deactivation rate) coefficients, would need to be determined. 
The thermal denaturation of an enzyme may be modeled by the following serial deactivation scheme:

where kd1 and kd2 are the first-order deactivation rate coefficients, E is the native enzyme which may, or may not, be an equilibrium mixture of a number of species, distinct in structure or activity, and E1 and E2 are enzyme molecules of average specific activity relative to E of A1 and A2. A1 may be greater or less than unity (i.e. E1 may have higher or lower activity than E) whereas A2 is normally very small or zero.  For the rest of the formula go here ~> LINK.

As far as the other deleterious effects of heat upon honey (e.g. denatures and promotes crosslinks in proteins, amino acids, etc.,), I would submit they are difficult to separate from enzymes (also being a protein), are of secondary significance, and likely even more difficult to qualify.

A nice piping hot cuppa is a pleasure I won't mess with   :-P

Precisely why I prefaced my additional comments (beyond the simple answer to the original poster's question) with the caveat "How much of a concern is that for you?  That is a personal issue."

Despite their importance upon health, a lot of people aren't concerned with enzymes.  I try to separate the personal lifestyle choices from the facts in any such discussion.  To each their own.  :-D

Cheers,
Dane





Offline utahbeekeeper

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2007, 10:26:54 PM »
To all . . . no it is of NO concern to me.  I put my own raw honey in my herbal tea, it taste GREAT and I just posted that musing question to elicit conversation.  Thanks for humoring me.  Don't forget your honey!  JP
Pleasant words are like an honeycomb, sweet to the soul and health to the bones.  Prov 16:24

Offline Dane Bramage

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2007, 01:24:45 AM »
To all . . . no it is of NO concern to me.  I put my own raw honey in my herbal tea, it taste GREAT and I just posted that musing question to elicit conversation.  Thanks for humoring me.  Don't forget your honey!  JP

YW  :) it's good to muse upon and question such things.  Search for the truth in all (my motto, if I had a motto  ;) ).  Raw-fooders have many and unique challenges with ensuring low-heat food prep.  Honey in hot tea is just such an example. 

Regarding the taste alone, it would be interesting to do a side by side of two teas; both cooled to same temp (perhaps served iced), one that had honey blended in while still piping hot, the other after it had cooled below 105F and do a "blind taste test".  I've read that heated honey loses some of it's flavor but unsure if it would be appreciable in tea (the tea imparting it's own flavours, etc.,).

I can't forget my honey.. especially the dwindling reserves from July's Blackberry.   :'(

Offline Mici

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2007, 09:51:50 AM »
hmmm, interesting "theory". i think that hot cup of tea would actually taste better than the cold one. im my opinion that's because heat, usually helps loosen up aromas, so more aroma is released if honey is hot. and aroma is usually what we call taste (you know...there are only 3 or 4 tastes? salt, sweet, bitter...).
 
then again...if it's too hot, you have to wait for it to cool down, and in the mean time, you're loosing aromas, so.....my guess would be that 50-70°C honey with a TS of honey would "taste" superior to other two.

Offline Cindi

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 10:19:35 AM »
Dane, beauty, so Archangel Apiaries is gonna be your name for your honey products, eh?  The picture is nice, as is the type.  Have a wonderful, great day.  Cindi
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Offline james

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 08:34:17 AM »
this is an interesting topic to me as i am a raw fooder and love my honey raw, the one thing that i may probably do differently from most bee keepers is removing the cappings before extracting with a knive that is not heated in any way, not always an easy task, seems so much easier to damage the comb when dragging the knive down the frame

my favorite drink is honey is mixed with fresh lemon juice and water and chilled, yum :lol:
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Offline buzzbee

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2007, 08:38:15 AM »
James,
A capping scratcher works perfectly well for the method you choose!

Offline james

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2007, 08:48:16 AM »
buzzbee, thats interesting, "a capping scratcher" i've never hear of such a thing, so imagine it is a special tool, that scratches rather than cuts the caps, i will check with the bee suppliers in town if they have one
thanks
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Offline buzzbee

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2007, 09:04:40 AM »
Heres a page with a couple photos
http://www.betterbee.com/departments2.asp?dept=466&bot=88

We use one ourselves.However if you got a lot of boxes there is better ways to do it.
A heated knife probably doesn't contact the honey itself to become an issuue as your only against it long enough to cut the wax.

Offline JP

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2007, 10:55:08 AM »
I like using the cappings scratchers as well. I was given an old heat knife and I just don't like how it puts out so much heat, things get stinking and such, and there's smoke.
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Offline Zoot

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2007, 12:29:24 AM »
James,

Add a little ginger - fresh or even good quality powdered - to that recipe and you've got the perfect year round tonic.

Offline james

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Re: So does Raw Honey cease to be Raw . . . .
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2007, 05:13:32 AM »
thanks zoot, will give that a try
james
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