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Author Topic: Oxalic acid in human body  (Read 5196 times)
Finsky
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« on: November 14, 2007, 08:47:18 AM »

http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/vet/mrls/089103en.pdf 
5 pages

* In mammals Oxalic acid is end product of some amino acids.

* 30-70% of body's oxalic acid cames from endogenous processes. The rest comes via food.

* Human body secretes every day  20-30 mg oxalic acid via urine. The rest comes via feces.

* Natural OA level in human blood system is 0.6-4.0 mg/kg.

Here is OA content in usual food stuffs in 100 g food.
http://www.guinealynx.com/diet_oxalic.html . Look column on right.

************************

Carrot has  quite high 5 g/kg = 5000 mg/kg

Normal OA content in honey is 1- 800mg/kg depending on nectar source. One teaspoon of honey  is about 10 g.

At it's worst teaspoon of honey has OA : 800 mg/1000 g ----> 8 mg OA per 10 g honey.

When you eat carrot 100 g, you get OA 500 mg and from one teaspoon of honey under 8 mg in all cases. The difference is at least 100 fold.



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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 04:06:21 PM »

the biggest risk are older women.
acid binds calcium, making women even more exposed to osteoporouses (spelling?!:D), although it can be just as bad for men.

not that i'm oposing you finsky, but my bigger concerne is, inhaling the stuff, or some other type of accident.

i checked for OA, and wow!! parsley, 17g/kg shocked
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Kirk-o
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 05:13:42 PM »

It nis one thing to get it naturally through differnt foods.But it is Differnt to pour that crap in a hive.It is un-natural Mother Nature didn't pour it in the hive.I think treatments make resistant mites and weak bees .
That is all
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 05:27:53 PM »

Mother nature never put powdered sugar in a hive either!
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Mici
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 05:31:26 PM »

Mother nature never put powdered sugar in a hive either!

nor did it paint logs, put frames/bars for bees to build comb on them, and most certainly did not steal honey from bees.
and the list could probably go on and on.


oh and finsky, thanks for the info!
i KNOW i read somewhere that OA is  a bi*** because it doesn't leave our "system", i guess that was a real amateur statement, and now that i think of it...i think it said 2g to be the LD.

your info is much appreciated finsky.
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 06:23:51 PM »

Mici,
My point exactly,nature not putting it there is not a valid argument for not using oxalic. Not treating mites could open the bees  to something more sinister ,virus wise.
We acn treat for mites,they may someday transmit to bees something we can't treat for.
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 06:51:22 PM »

nor did it paint logs, put frames/bars for bees to build comb on them, and most certainly did not steal honey from bees.
and the list could probably go on and on.


If man didn't do all of that then there would be no beekeeping and no need for this "what is natural" argument. (Nature did steal honey..... Bears for one)

But now that man has placed bees into boxes for the purpose of harvesting honey, and has changed things a lot from the natural way bees do things, then man has caused a lot of the problems that the bees have. If we stop giving the mites stuff to grow immune to, and allow the bees to naturally adjust to the mites and other diseases, things would be a lot better and easier for all. Personally I don't understand all the fear mongering about bee diseases. Some people here talk like all bees (feral, untreated) are walking, crawling, flying, breeding plaques. The healthiest bees I've seen are the ferals.

More on this wonderful naturally occurring acid;
http://apps.uwhealth.org/health/adam/hie/1/002479.htm
http://pennhealth.com/ency/article/002479.htm
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/OX/oxalic_acid_dihydrate.html
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2007, 07:20:16 PM »

Quote
But now that man has placed bees into boxes for the purpose of harvesting honey

it's not like this is a new thing.  man has been keeping bees for 1000's of years. 

Quote
, and has changed things a lot from the natural way bees do things, then man has caused a lot of the problems that the bees have. If we stop giving the mites stuff to grow immune to, and allow the bees to naturally adjust to the mites and other diseases, things would be a lot better and easier for all.

this might be a fact.  it would also apply to cattle, sheep, grain, and people.  if we went back to survival of the fittest, we'd probably have a nice, healthy, gene pool.  of course, some of us wouldn't be here right now.

if you want to go back to letting nature make our choices, rip off some tree bark and have a seat.  otherwise we need to find the most effective and reasonable way to manage the things we have.  that would include bees.
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2007, 07:31:49 PM »

it's not like this is a new thing.  man has been keeping bees for 1000's of years. 


And really started changing things (cell size) in the last 100+ years

this might be a fact.  it would also apply to cattle, sheep, grain, and people.  if we went back to survival of the fittest, we'd probably have a nice, healthy, gene pool.  of course, some of us wouldn't be here right now.

That is correct. In fact I said that somewhere a week or so ago.... I have read an article some where that because of corralling cattle on feed lots and doing the things they do there to the cows that they are not healthy for us to eat and are causing a lot of the human health problems we have today. Free range cattle on the other hand is very healthy for us.

There has been in the news lately articles about super bugs killing people. These bugs came about because of the over use of antibiotics on people. But it will never end as long as the majority believe science equals better living.

 
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2007, 07:37:53 PM »

Chemical treatments make Resistant Mites and Weaker Bees. It contaminates the wax and the hive and the Honey.Just put on your Label the Honey in this container comes from  Bees  that  have been Treated for Mites.This honey came from a hive that is contaminated.Enjoy
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2007, 07:44:45 PM »



There has been in the news lately articles about super bugs killing people. These bugs came about because of the over use of antibiotics on people. But it will never end as long as the majority believe science equals better living.

 

Read The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan for a really indepth discussion of this very topic.  Fascinating book, I couldn't put it down. 
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2007, 07:48:01 PM »

A Lot of the bees problems have been Mans Solutions
kirko
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2007, 07:49:42 PM »

Chemical treatments make Resistant Mites and Weaker Bees. It contaminates the wax and the hive and the Honey.Just put on your Label the Honey in this container comes from  Bees  that  have been Treated for Mites.This honey came from a hive that is contaminated.Enjoy
kirko

Can you please provide some scientific studies that back up these accusations as it relates to oxalic acid.  Or should we just take you at your word?

I believe we have had this discussion before, but obviously you either don't read the studies done about oxalic acid or you don't care to be educated about the real facts and just want to keep stirring the pot with your uneducated banter.

I think we all get the fact that you don't treat your bees with anything and we are happy for you.  Some of us aren't as lucky and need to treat.
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2007, 08:07:13 PM »

Quote
There has been in the news lately articles about super bugs killing people. These bugs came about because of the over use of antibiotics on people. But it will never end as long as the majority believe science equals better living.


on the other hand, fewer people die of things like pneumonia, have limbs cut off because a simple cut becomes gangrenous, or end up with damaged hearts from strep throat.  i think what we are after is balance.  science is not the answer to everything, but neither is living in a mud hut with a dung fire to cook over.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2007, 10:51:05 PM »

the biggest risk are older women.


If you read the information, there is no risk from honey's oxalic acid. Even if you look it with magnifying glass.

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 What is difference in your natural beekeeping, if you know things or you don't.  You just keep your system and are afraid same things as before. So what ever we research and study, nature knows best. - I have seen awful results from this style of living. I want to keep myself as far as possible from humans- It is waste of time to try to tell them anything. They have their truth about Mother Nature. If they are happy in they life, I do not think that I would help them in their disaster: No chemicals, no artificial nutrition, no that or that.





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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2007, 07:58:40 AM »

I think the biggest side effect of excessive OA (from rhubarb, spinach,etc) is kidney stones.  If you have those you are supposed to stay away from food high in oxalates.  But that is only in a minority of the population.

And most honey doesn't have that levels unless you are very careless.

And no, you don't want to pour crap in a hive.  Even if it is sterilized it still smells bad.  That goes on the garden. tongue  A little OA carefully trickled in the hive won't hurt, though.
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2007, 03:02:19 PM »

finsky
my biggest concern about the OA is, inexperienced user, that's all, that's why i pointed certain stuff.
also, i was miss led for a long time, about effects of OA and how it works.

kirk-o
nature did not put honeybees on America
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2007, 04:33:36 PM »

Nature put the bees on Earth.Most of Natures problems are Mans Solutions
kirko
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2007, 05:03:35 PM »

Quote
Most of Natures problems are Mans Solutions

simply not true.  animals in nature are diseased critters that carry diseased critters on them.  they kill and infect each other on a regular basis.  volcanoes go up.  earthquakes happen.  hurricanes come.  i'd say that most of mans problems are created by nature!  other than war, which is indeed a problem of man, nature is the greatest slaughtering machine  it is only our ability to manipulate, or insulate ourselves from, nature that allows us to survive and thrive.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2007, 05:13:33 PM »

Hey kathyp super bee do you treat your bees with chemicals?
kirko
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2007, 05:58:46 PM »

chemicals or naturally ocuring organic compounds like OA and Thymol?
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2007, 06:13:07 PM »

Quote
Hey kathyp super bee do you treat your bees with chemicals?

no more than i need to and not without consideration for consequences.

a reverence for all things natural is misplaced worship.  go visit some places that do not have access to our "chemicals" and tell me that you wish to live that way. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2007, 09:27:36 PM »

Hey kathyp super bee do you treat your bees with chemicals?
kirko

More important Do you treat yourself with chemicals? "Pure" water, soap, tooth paste, hair color, sweat preventer, alcohol, coca-cola, salt, sugar, allowed ingredient, cotton clothes, paint your walls......

If your child has louses in his/her head, do you use chemical on your child to get rid off louses or do you let nature handle the case or do you cutchild hairs and wash the head wit pure water?

In my city pure drinking water has 16 added chemicals. You you know how much your drinking water has?


Scottish Government's 
List of Approved Products and Processes December 2003 in drinking water production


1.    FLOCCULANTS AND COAGULANTS

1.A. Products based on tannin

The dose used must not exceed 10 mg l
-1 of active material.

GE Betz Ltd
 Klaraid PC 4000

1.B. Products based on aluminium

Kemira Chemicals (UK) Ltd
 PAX-XL60S

Kemira Kemi UK Ltd
 PAX-XL60

 PAX-XL610

1.C. Products based on aluminium and iron

Clinty Chemicals Ltd

 Ferric Aluminium Sulfate

Kemira Chemicals (UK) Ltd

 AVL
1
 AVR
1
1For these products the dose must not exceed 150 mg l
-1 of the product as supplied.

Kemira Kemi AB

 Kemira AVR

1.D. Products based on iron

GEH Wasserchemie Gmbh

 GEH ferric hydroxide

High Chemicals (UK) Ltd

 Econofloc 15

1.E. Products based on bentonite

Chemviron Carbon
 Coagulant Aid 25

 Coagulant Aid 35

Steetley Minerals Limited

 Berkbent CE

2.    ADSORBENTS

Bayer AG+
 Bayoxide E33

Purolite International Ltd
 Macronet - MN200

 For this product the following condition applies:

 The contact bed containing the product must be adequately backwashed in accordance with the Instructions for Use document and then rinsed with 5 bed volumes of water passed downflow to waste.

Brimac Carbon services Ltd
 Brimac Bone Charcoal

 For this product the following condition applies:

The contact bed containing the product must be adequately back-washed (until backwash water is clear of fines) to remove any readily leachable materials beforeconnection to the supply.

3. ION EXCHANGE RESINS SYSTEMS

3.A. Ion Exchange Resins

Purolite International Ltd
 Purolite A520E nitrate selective anion exchange resin

Rohm and Haas Ltd
 IMAC HP 336

 IMAC HP 555

3.B. Treatment Systems for Ion Exchange Resins

Ionex Ltd

 Eliminate Process

4.    OTHER CHEMICALS

4.A. Stabilising agents and corrosion prevention agents

Singleton Birch Ltd
 Hydrogel 20

 Hydrogel 30

 Hydrogel 40

 Hydrogel 50

4.B. Gases for tracing leaks in water mains

BOC Ltd
 Sulphur Hexafluoride

Sensitor AB

 Hydrogen (H
2) Tracer Gas

4.C. Chemicals for flow meter calibration

Lithium salts

The use of lithium salts for meter calibration in water mains is acceptable providing that the maximum concentration of lithium in water supplied to consumers doesnot exceed 0.10 mg l
-1 at any time (the analytical method used for lithiumdetermination should have an accuracy better than 0.01 mg l
-1 at 0.10 mg l
-1)

5.    PRODUCTS FOR THE DISINFESTATION, DISINFECTION AND CLEANING OF WATERWORKS APPARATUS INCLUDING DISTRIBUTION SYSTEMS

Note: There are now no approved disinfestation agents.

5.A. Cleaning agents for water treatment installations

Permission or consent for disposal of any wastewater generated to a sewer or watercourse must be obtained from Scottish Water or the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, as appropriate.

EPSCO Ltd

 Carela RS 100

Permacare - Membrane Separations Group

 Resintreat

5. B Products for use in Seawater Desalination by evaporation

SNF Floerger
 Dispersant No.6 ATC

6.   DISINFECTANTS FOR EMERGENCY USE

Products based on silver

Land & Marine Environmental Ltd

 Sanicil 100

ROAM chemie NV
 Huwa-San TR50

 Huwa-San TR5

 Tiosan

Swissteril International 5755 Ltd
 Sanosil Super 25

 Steril

For products in this section the following conditions apply:

(i) the dose of product is such that the concentration of silver in the water does not exceed 80 m g l
-1; and

(ii) Consumers are exposed to water containing silver for only as long as is required to restore conventional treatment, or for no more than 90 days in anyperiod of a year, whichever is applicable.

7.   PRODUCTS BASED ON TRADITIONAL CHEMICALS

Most of traditional chemicals are now covered by BS EN Standards (see annex 1.6). The following are not covered by a specific BS EN and are considered by the Committee to be unobjectionable on health grounds for the treatment of water.

For products and chemicals in this section the following general condition applies:

The method of use and the purity of these products shall be such that, in the case of water for public supply, the water so treated meets the requirements of the Water Supply (Water Quality) (Scotland) Regulations 2001.

7.A. Traditional chemicals

Bentonite

 Calcium chloride

 Calcium sulfate

 Ferrous chloride

 Magnesium carbonate

 Magnesium hydroxide

 Magnesium oxide

 Manganese dioxide

 Magnetite

 Sodium chloride

 Sodium sulfate

 Citric Acid (food grade), for use in cleaning of membranes

7.B. Sodium hypochlorite produced from the on-site electrolytic generation of chlorine

There is no BS EN currently available.

For products in section 7.A.1 the following condition also applies:

The concentration of chlorate should not exceed 0.7mg l
-1 (as chlorate) in the treated water.

Aztec Environmental Controls

 Sodium hypochlorite generated by the ElectroCell Process

Electrocatalytic

 Sodium hypochlorite generated by the Pacpuri system

Severn Trent Services

 Clortec cell    

Wallace and Tiernan Ltd

 Sodium hypochlorite generated by the OSEC system

Waterman Environmental Services Ltd

 MIOX Electrolytic Sodium Hypochlorite Generators
.
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2007, 09:22:21 AM »

Finsky, now you are scaring me.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, Cindi

I see "silver" mentioned in there.  Anyone use colloidal silver water?  Google that one.
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2007, 09:28:20 AM »

Professor Finsky, that is a mouthfull. 
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2007, 01:33:17 PM »

[I see "silver" mentioned in there.  Anyone use colloidal silver water?  Google that one.]

Colloidal Silver doesn't negate any of the other nasty elements found in "pure" tap water.
And colloidal silver has a limited viable life - exposure to light quickly dimishes its positive properties.

It is the absolute best antiseptic (as it leaves no surviving bacteria to evolve to stronger strains).
I've even considered it in treating "Nosema" apis as it also works well as an anti-fungal.
Not to mention its cheaper to make than to buy Fumigil-B.

-Jeff
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2007, 12:42:18 PM »

We make our own colloidal silver water, keep it no longer than one month, in a brown bottle in a dark cupboard.  After one month, we discard and make a new batch.  We do not keep it anywhere near our microwave either.  They put "silver" in the eyes of babies when they are born to prevent disease, this has been done as long as I can even remember, when my little gals were born, that was a long time ago (hee, hee)  Wink Smiley Smiley

I have seen miracles with use of this water.  One that particularly comes to mind is the curing of our little pittbull of the parvo virus when he was a young dog.  Most puppies do not survive this virus, even with veterinary intervention, (which by the way is about $1,200, if the pup makes it).  Colloidal silver water no doubt saved this puppy's life, I saw positive results within a few hours of injesting this water, which was poured down his throat.  Powerful stuff.  I could cite many many instances, but I think many of you would be bored, as this would be telling a tale which has already been told.

Johnson & Johnson is even making a bandaid that has "silver" in it, yep, bringing back the remedies of old.

Long before refrigeration was around, this is heresay, people would put silver in their milk jugs to keep it safe for human consumption.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, best of this great life we live.  Cindi
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2007, 06:14:18 PM »

"The leading cause of problems is solutions" --Severides Law
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2007, 06:45:12 PM »

    The solution to a problem is often found within the problem itself .

                                                 Burls law

If you don't want to go somewhere in particular , then don't get on that bus.

                                               Yet another of Burl's laws
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2007, 07:42:27 PM »

>If you don't want to go somewhere in particular , then don't get on that bus.

I like it.
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
kensfarm
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2007, 07:56:19 PM »

Wow Finsky.. you make me realize that I'm lucky my water just comes from a hole in the ground.  City water smells like bleach to me. 
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buzzbee
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2007, 08:09:14 PM »

Have that water from a hole in the ground analyzed and you might be surprised! Smiley
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Finsky
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2007, 12:59:21 AM »

Wow Finsky.. you make me realize that I'm lucky my water just comes from a hole in the ground.  City water smells like bleach to me. 

We have last spring competition between  bottled well waters  and the city water was here the test winner.

It depends how good is origin of city water. We have 120 km long tunnel from inland lake to capital city. Tunnel goes 30 - 100 meters under ground level . The lake itself is 120 km long and second biggest lake in Finland.

But in many towns in Finland raw water is bad. You may see that to make pure water is big job. Small towns are able to do top quality water in their small factories.
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Here nature water is acid and it dilutes metall from water pipes. So pipe water is here pH 8 and in soil it is about pH 6.

Some families have got red hairs when they have not handled raw water with chalk.  shocked

I take city water to my summer cottage for drinking.

.
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Finsky
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2007, 01:04:12 AM »

Chemical treatments make Resistant Mites and Weaker Bees.

This is true if you use Apistan. It is a fat soluble stuff.

When we use organic acids or thymol, they do not accumulate into wax.

Only harm is to avoid larva violations.

.
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Zoot
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« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2007, 11:45:22 PM »

Reinbeau,

Excellent book. I particularly enjoyed his analysis of the "organic" foods industry as a whole. An excellent companion is Barbara Kingsolver's Animal, Vegitable, Miracle.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2007, 06:13:10 PM »

Reinbeau,

Excellent book. I particularly enjoyed his analysis of the "organic" foods industry as a whole.

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

Quote
An excellent companion is Barbara Kingsolver's Animal, Vegitable, Miracle.

On order from Amazon, I think it'll be here next week (I've been meaning to read it since it came out).  She wrote one of my all time favorite fiction books, Prodigal Summer.  I can't wait to read this new one.
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