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Author Topic: Foundation pros and cons  (Read 15476 times)
Finsky
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2007, 03:40:52 AM »

.
To get foundations to build has no difficulties if you put foundations into the hive during heavy nectar flow.
Bees build combs in few days and fill cells with nectar. Bees do not build empty combs for the future or for they happiness.

When nectar flow ceases, bees stop their comb building. That is natural system and I use it. I have so much combs that I do not force them build combs in early spring or before autumn. In early summer comb building prevent swarming, but if bees do not build, it is Ok to me.

I use partly drawn foundation on sides of hive during winter. In ealy summer I wait that bees start to draw those combs before I offer them new foundations. Many beekeepers think that bees must draw combs because beekeeper wants it happen. Why?

When you feed wintersyrup, bees do not cap combs if they are not full. That is their natural system. They do nothing for fun except sting me.

I have not met any difficulties in combs building.   If I forget frame from the hive, on next visit I will meet free comb there, and mostly drone combs. If they have not food flow, I meet an empty gap.

This is an ultimate example:

I moved my 3 best hives to the fireweed pastures. Pasture was inside half mile distance, 20 hehtares tall fireweed. Nectar runned down from flowers after night.

In picture you see a hive, where I put 3 boxes foundations because i have not drawn combs.
In 3 weeks each hive brought 240 lbs capped honey and drawed those 3 boxes too.

3 miles away I had 4 hives beside 30 hehtares rape. It was dry hot weather and sandy soil. Rape did not exrecet nectar musch. Bees got 1/5 of yield compared to the fireweed pastures and they build partly half a box foundations.

If it had rained well, things woud be in another way but it did not rained.

What then. Nothing. That is beekeeping and I don't see any difficulties in this issue. I do not take headace from that. Next year will come.

Look the hive on the carry. It is full of bees 7 boxes. (Year 2005)
This summer was rainy and same pasture gived very small yield. Perhaps 80 lbs per hive.


.
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ooptec
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2007, 12:17:03 PM »

Hey Finsky,

Was surprised in your map that the Psychotic States rated quite a bit more highly than Finland, or a bunch of other places I wouldn't have put them above being born there and lived for awhile till fortunately escaped. ..... go figure

Tho it was from 2003-04 and a lot has changed since then, Wonder what their criteria is??

cheers

peter
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kathyp
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2007, 01:08:32 PM »

Quote
Tho it was from 2003-04 and a lot has changed since then

yes....it's gotten even better!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2007, 01:24:12 PM »

bitter or better     lol
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Finsky
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2007, 02:13:50 PM »

, Wonder what their criteria is??


What I know is that you have better calculators.

.
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kathyp
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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2007, 02:41:24 PM »

Quote
What I know is that you have better calculators.


they are made in china!   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2007, 02:45:15 PM »

Quote
What I know is that you have better calculators.


they are made in china!   evil

about everything in this country is made in china  Sad
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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Amateurs built the ark,
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Finsky
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« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2007, 03:14:12 PM »

calculators. are made in china!   evil

Jack Kilby was named, along with three Russian scientists, as winners of the 2000 Nobel Prize in physics for their work in laying the foundations of information technology. . Kilby, of Texas Instruments, won the award for his part in the invention of the integrated circuit and as a co-inventor of the pocket calculator.

Jack Kilby grew up in Great Bend, Kansas and joined TI in Dallas in 1958. During the summer of that year, working with borrowed and improvised equipment, he conceived and built the first electronic circuit in which all of the components, both active and passive, were fabricated in a single piece of semiconductor material half the size of a paper clip.
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kathyp
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« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2007, 04:17:52 PM »

i just pulled the 3 calculators that i have sitting here.  (i have 3 because they are cheap  smiley) one is assembled in Taiwan, and two are made in China.  i think it's nice that we share inventions  smiley.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2007, 03:20:14 PM »

its like a lot of thing, invented in the states then made elsewhere so share holders make a dollar!!!!!
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new.
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Old Timer
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« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2007, 07:08:30 PM »

What is being said here is that if using foundationless frames and the bees have to draw natural comb, they consume more honey for making wax than if you use wax foundation in the frames.  It takes honey to produce comb.  Simply said.  Have a wonderful and great day, beautiful life.  Cindi

It's estimated it takes 8 pounds of honey to make one pound of wax. 500,000 flakes of wax go into one pound. Ten sheets of deep foundation weigh about 1.5 pound or less. The bees can save 12 pound of honey if you give them foundation. But if you break that down into the weight of the nectar collected to make the honey, you're looking at somewhere around 50 pounds +/- of nectar. That's a lot of work to build what could be foundation. If the bees build their own comb without foundation, the bottom of the cells is thinner than foundation and won't take this much nectar to build it but it does require extra work.

As far as foundation, it is all a matter of preference. I like natural comb, the queen likes it better too. I like crimped wire wax foundation. I've never had any problems out of duragilt or plasticell. Foundation is good if you are trying to get a certain size cell drawn. Plastic frames are good for instant regression and other purposes like wax moths and shb. I do recommend for you try a few different ways in order to see which you prefer. You're the one that needs to be happy with the decisions you make about how you manage your bees.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2007, 07:30:10 PM »

The bottom line is how fast do they build the comb so there is somewhere to put the nectar?  They build it faster without the foundation.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Hopeful
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« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2007, 07:55:30 PM »

Thanks Old Timer. Good and well reasoned answer. However, my situation is a bit unique in that even though I have now only 12 hives, and space for another 20 or so next spring. I am committed to making this work as a sideline business and am investing accordingly. Also, I have my investment money now and must be spent before the end of the year. My plan is to eventually expand to 100 hives, but beginning with about 30 next season. Even still, I need to buy my 85 or so hives now, regardless of when I place them, because now is when the money is available. That is also why I am buying extracting and processing equipment to support 100 hives and not the 12 I have now.

This leaves no time for experimentation. I am wanting to go with as few chemicals as possible so maybe that means Pierco or something.
Michael B. mentioned a foundation from Mann Lake. Is that a plastic foundation or a plastic drawn comb/frame combo?

What I would rally like would be for a sideliner to sell his stuff to me. But most of these guys are in Timbuktu (or Nebraska Smiley ) and many of them want to sell their junk, while keeping the good stuff for themselves.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2007, 08:30:50 PM »

>This leaves no time for experimentation. I am wanting to go with as few chemicals as possible so maybe that means Pierco or something.
Michael B. mentioned a foundation from Mann Lake. Is that a plastic foundation or a plastic drawn comb/frame combo?

PF100s (deep) and PF120s (medium) are 4.95mm.  They are one piece frame and foundation:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page87.html
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/MannLakeFramesPF120-498.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/MannLakeFramesPF100-498.jpg
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Hopeful
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« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2007, 04:30:42 AM »

Looks like a winner, Michael. I have read that I should not mix wood with plastic frames, but if these are going in all new hives then that should not be a problem. Any down side to these that you know of?
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Finsky
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« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2007, 06:42:31 AM »

The bottom line is how fast do they build the comb so there is somewhere to put the nectar?  They build it faster without the foundation.


I cannot get this idea at all. If bees have not space to store nectar, they fill brood area.Then they swarm. When you have hives, keep always emty combs inside hive to take in what ever nectar flow.  I do not know, how often it happens that bottle neck is speed of cell building. It have not come into my mind before. 

Of course bees make quicker foundations because they need to exrecete was half of natural amount. Wax making is big job to bees which are in that age. Wax bilders are 2-4 weeks old bees.

Bees draw foundation extremely fast when nectarflow is heavy.  I have never seen that drawing combs will hinder honey yield.
THis whole story is from air.

AND when you are experienced beekeeper, you give to hive all the time NEW EMPTY COMBS AND YOU EXCTRACT QUICKLY CAPPED HONEY THAY THEY WILL CARRY MORE.

WHEN BEES STORE HONEY AND CAPP IT, THEY NEED 2 BOXES MORE WHERE PUT NECTAR TO RIPPEN. SO TO GET ONE SUPER HONEY, COLONY NEED 2 SUPERS. OTHERWISE BEES STORE NECTAR INTO BROOD AREA, THEY SLOW DOWN WORKING AND START TO SWARM.

IF NECTAR LAYER IS TOO THICH IN COMS, WATER ELIMINATION WILL BE SLOWER.

Sometimes I have had situation that I must extract big hives every week. Unless they will be filled and they swarm.
Colony just leave the hive and in queen cups  you se only egg.

**********

BOTTOM LINE: to give top bars is not an answer to heavy nectar flow. The answer is totally opposite. Give to bees ready combs and extract them.
'


.
 

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Finsky
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« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2007, 06:44:40 AM »

HERE YOU HAVE THE ANSWER

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

I have showed this link every year here. It is from Canada.


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Michael Bush
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« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2007, 07:12:40 AM »

>Looks like a winner, Michael. I have read that I should not mix wood with plastic frames, but if these are going in all new hives then that should not be a problem. Any down side to these that you know of?

The PF100 and 120s are very cheaply made.  They are cheap to buy as well.  I haven't broken any yet, so the plastic seems pretty resilient even if they are light.  They seem to work fine.  In a few of the boxes if I push them to one end they fall in.  That's frustrating, but it doesn't happen in most boxes.  They are well accepted.  In bulk they are less than a dollar a piece.  I bought 2800 of them all together this last year.

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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Cindi
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« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2007, 09:11:08 AM »

Finsky, this is a good site information.  I have studied this before.

This man who compiled the information, along with others, Adony Melanthopoulus, was one of the speakers at the Bee Masters short course, that I took at our local university.  He is a young, energetic man who loves to study the bees, and has performed numerous studies of great degrees.  He is held in high esteem, and is a wonderful person.  I enjoyed his exuberance for the honeybees and life in general.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, enjoy life.  Cindi 
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« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2007, 09:28:20 AM »

Finsky, I agree that drawn comb is the fastest and easiest way to get more honey and to start a colony out with. The bees will fill between four to five empty supers with nectar to get one super of honey so you should use more than two supers of drawn comb for supers if you have it. This will intensify their hoarding instinct and give plenty of room for nectar. I'll always divide what comb I have, usually four supers per colony, between my hives to give them an equal chance. They fill it fast and I harvest early and as often as I need to keep them with empty comb to fill. I've extracted as many as five times before during a good year by using drawn comb. I haven't had a year like that in about 8 years, but it has happened. The first step is having drawn comb, hopeful is at the first step.
I do think that you miss the point that Hopeful has no drawn comb and is wanting to start about 85 new hives. He has no choice but to use foundation or starter strips or plastic frames. He does not want to use chemicals in his hives so it probably would not be a good idea to buy comb from someone else. The only way he can get comb is to have his bees make it.
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