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Author Topic: favorite method for powdered sugar treatments  (Read 11903 times)
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 10:16:07 PM »

 I still maintain that if one keeps the mite population under control,  the bees will co-exist with the mites and will not develop any resistant traits. 

Gradually less sugar shakes to increase mite load and observation for hygenic behavior.  Give them what they can handle, them make them handle more.
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Finsky
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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2007, 12:33:48 AM »



The theory I opperate under is that an overload of mites can kill the hive early on, but my limiting the population of the mites through the use of sugar shakes the bees have time to develop hygenic behaviors that will, in effect, make them resistant.  Anamok Effendi?


Hygienic behaviour is in bees' many genes. With sugar you cannot change genes or gene pool around you. Only queen breeding and strong selection in breeding makes better results and it is not very effective neither.

What is your valuation how much bees need to develop behaviour?  - I have seen none breeding program where sugar is the tool in bee breeding. Best tool is the instrument insemination and selecting queen and drone strains.  They do this in every country but where are results. It is really difficult and SLOW. Very few makes success on this field.

And mite develops itself too......

Here is a research 2006. It says that presence of hygienic bees in colony does not help nonhygienic bees to clean comps. So it develops only via genes and via queen - drone genes. So sugar will not help neither
http://www.extension.umn.edu/honeybees/components/pdfs/ArathiSpivakAnimBehav06.pdf



.

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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2007, 10:59:20 PM »

Congratulations, Finskey.  You have once again managed to find disagreement because you choose to misunderstand what's being said.

   
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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2007, 10:13:40 PM »

I understand the theory, but the question I still have is what are you doing that causes them to develop a hygienic behavior?   I still maintain that if one keeps the mite population under control,  the bees will co-exist with the mites and will not develop any resistant traits. 





Hygienic behaviour is in bees' many genes. With sugar you cannot change genes or gene pool around you. Only queen breeding and strong selection in breeding makes better results and it is not very effective neither.


I believe Brian's approach is valid, I don't think he is necessarily trying to cause hygenic behavior right away.  Rather, by keeping the bees alive, giving them time to supercede a few times, genes will be mixed and eventually the right ones will be expressed.  At that time, sugar dusting will no longer be needed by him or his bees.  What he is doing to achieve this is keeping his bees alive, for dead bees cannot pass on any potentially good genetics that are at the moment not being expressed.  He is maintaining a diverse gene pool UNTIL that happens.  Of course the other approach that must be mentioned now is- Don't treat, Don't monitor mites, Don't do anything and hopefully this will select for the same hygienic behavior.  Perhaps another way to put it, he is allowing the bees more time, watching for good traits BEFORE culling any that arepotentially carrying but not expressing them at this time? 
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2007, 11:53:32 PM »

I understand the theory, but the question I still have is what are you doing that causes them to develop a hygienic behavior?   I still maintain that if one keeps the mite population under control,  the bees will co-exist with the mites and will not develop any resistant traits. 





Hygienic behaviour is in bees' many genes. With sugar you cannot change genes or gene pool around you. Only queen breeding and strong selection in breeding makes better results and it is not very effective neither.


I believe Brian's approach is valid, I don't think he is necessarily trying to cause hygenic behavior right away.  Rather, by keeping the bees alive, giving them time to supercede a few times, genes will be mixed and eventually the right ones will be expressed.  At that time, sugar dusting will no longer be needed by him or his bees.  What he is doing to achieve this is keeping his bees alive, for dead bees cannot pass on any potentially good genetics that are at the moment not being expressed.  He is maintaining a diverse gene pool UNTIL that happens.  Of course the other approach that must be mentioned now is- Don't treat, Don't monitor mites, Don't do anything and hopefully this will select for the same hygienic behavior.  Perhaps another way to put it, he is allowing the bees more time, watching for good traits BEFORE culling any that arepotentially carrying but not expressing them at this time? 


And the Insight award goes to....BenC.
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Finsky
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« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2007, 08:07:40 PM »

.
I hope that USA universities soon apply Brian's method.

Give time - 2 years or 50 years?
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kathyp
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« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2007, 01:29:42 PM »

http://www.epa.gov/pesp/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm

http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/pesp/regional_grants/2001/r7-2001-final.htm

you can find their studies in more detail, just didn't want to clog minds.  one of the reasons they did not recommend PS as a hive control was that the mites could return to the bees.  with the advent of the screened bottom board, the mites are dislodged from bees and drop through the screen.  while i would not use the powdered sugar as my only treatment, i do think it is useful mid season as a way to reduce mite infestation.  the more live bees, the more work done.  the fewer mites, the less chance of mite related disease.

it is inexpensive and will do little harm to brood if not applied directly to brood.
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« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2007, 03:06:03 PM »



These things are cleared out in Europe 5-7 years ago. I do not know what USA seach. Italian Nanetti is key person in these studies.


Quote
one of the reasons they did not recommend PS as a hive control was that the mites could return to the bees. 


In theory that is good idea, but in practice it has been found that it does not work in practice.

Quote
with the advent of the screened bottom board, the mites are dislodged from bees and drop through the screen.


Goo idea, but i does not work in practice. It has been revieled out many times even in Canada.

 
Quote
while i would not use the powdered sugar as my only treatment, i do think it is useful mid season as a way to reduce mite infestation.  the more live bees, the more work done.  the fewer mites, the less chance of mite related disease.


The key point is that mite level must keep so small that after summer mite population does not violate wintering bees. When last bees will over winter, all mites concentrate themselves into last brood.

If mite level is high, you take honey off and soon after that you give some vapour treatment like thymol or formic acid.

As I have written, PS is not recomended in Europe. It is laborous and ineffective method.

Kathyp, you live quite in cold climate and it is most easy to kill mites with one treatment. It takes 30 seconds per hive.
You have brood brake there and it makes it easy. 
http://pix.epodunk.com/locatorMaps/or/OR_15184.gif

You may keep your mind out and take what ever system into use, but just now, open your eyes and take into use best method: trickling.  - But after that you have not so much talk about mites because hey are so hard to find.

If you have open mind, it cannot mean that you are 10 years after those who has closed mind. That is not purpose  cool

.

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kathyp
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« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2007, 04:52:55 PM »

i will probably stick to the thymol until OA is approved in the US.  it is an issue i don't want to deal with if i sell honey later.  the thymol seems to work well, it just takes more time than i would like.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Finsky
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2007, 05:07:02 PM »

i will probably stick to the thymol until OA is approved in the US.  it is an issue i don't want to deal with if i sell honey later.  the thymol seems to work well, it just takes more time than i would like.

Thymol is very good. Many here use it only and once per year when they have got mite level low enough.  You have there longer brooding season and it gives time to mites to spread. Formic acid works same way.
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kansas
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« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2007, 05:15:02 PM »

So...I have a two medium box hive going into its first winter.  I sugar shook threee times before wrapping them up about a month ago- i just shook it across the tops of the bars and swept what landed ontop of the frames in between.

Now, I think it may be good to use some oxalic acid early this winter.  Can anyone see any problems with vaporizing or trickling at this time with a two medium hive?

I'm wondering if a) I can treat the whole hive w/ one vaporizing or trickle.  and b) which method is better for given outside temps

also, Finsky ( or someone who know) what are the size of cells in your hives?
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Hopeful
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« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2007, 06:28:14 PM »

I just read in a catalog that powdered sugar sweeping is not done with powdered suger, but with a special "just for bees" powdered sugar sold by the vendors. They said that normal powdered sugar can be harmful.

So then you all are talking about sprinkling powdered sugar, you mean the special stuff and not store bought powdered sugar, right?
It is beginning to look like the ones who do the best financially in Beedom are those who sell the supplies!
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2007, 07:44:16 PM »

>I just read in a catalog that powdered sugar sweeping is not done with powdered suger, but with a special "just for bees" powdered sugar sold by the vendors. They said that normal powdered sugar can be harmful.

Plain old powdered sugar works fine for treating for mites.  If you want to feed sugar, then the finely granulated sugar works better, but it's not actually fine enough to do well on Varroa.

The "just for bees" stuff is actually just "bakers sugar".
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annette
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« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2007, 09:59:19 PM »

Been using just plain old powdered sugar from the supermarket. It has corn starch in it, but for just dusting the hives, it is fine.

Annette
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2007, 11:05:01 PM »

I just read in a catalog that powdered sugar sweeping is not done with powdered suger, but with a special "just for bees" powdered sugar sold by the vendors. They said that normal powdered sugar can be harmful.

So then you all are talking about sprinkling powdered sugar, you mean the special stuff and not store bought powdered sugar, right?
It is beginning to look like the ones who do the best financially in Beedom are those who sell the supplies!

For mite control you could use Talcum powder or Flour if you wanted to, Powdered sugar is used (with or without additives) because it is more bee friendly--meaning the bees can consume if powdered sugar if they add water if they want to.  BTW, I am not advocating using either Talc or Flour, I've been misunderstood on that before by those who don't read very closely.  The point is that any powder can act as a lubricant to make the mites fall of the bees, powdered sugar is the most bee friendly of those powders.
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Finsky
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« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2007, 04:56:20 AM »



For mite control you could use Talcum powder

Talc (derived from the Persian via Arabic talq) is a mineral composed of hydrated magnesium silicate with the chemical formula H2Mg3(SiO3)4 or Mg3Si4O10(OH)2.

To babies back side and to women's face, why not on bees?

.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2007, 10:52:02 PM »



For mite control you could use Talcum powder

Talc (derived from the Persian via Arabic talq) is a mineral composed of hydrated magnesium silicate with the chemical formula H2Mg3(SiO3)4 or Mg3Si4O10(OH)2.

To babies back side and to women's face, why not on bees?

.
IT will dry out and kill the LARVE -RDY-B
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« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2007, 03:19:52 PM »

I think you should drop all that stuff an just move towards small cell.This could
save you alot of time and effort.The Bees would be happier also.
kirko
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« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2007, 03:45:07 PM »

I think you should drop all that stuff an just move towards small cell.This could
save you alot of time and effort.The Bees would be happier also.
kirko

Why would the bees bee happier with small cell?----Asking myself Huh?Smaller cells - Smaller bees---less storage area---smaller bees = less work? huh
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Kirk-o
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« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2007, 03:55:23 PM »

Less mites healthy bees
kirk0
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