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Author Topic: oxalic acid application  (Read 5777 times)
alfred
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« on: October 20, 2007, 05:35:56 PM »

  Well I tried it this morning. I went out early before the girls were up and gave it a shot. I haven't seen any noticeable changes this afternoon. I pulled the drop tray and nothing in it yet.

   I will definitly do some things diferent next time. the pipe that I used didn't fit into the hole in the shim board... I should have checked it out before hand, so I had to just hold it up flush. I also wasn't able to properly measure the ammount of acid as my kitchen scale isn't that accurate... I also wish that I had made a device that would allow me to see the vapor going in. hard to tell if anything is happenning. I videod the entire proceedure so maybe when I have an extra day I will upload it, I have dial up so I am slow...

   I think that I am going to do it again next week. I will try to make a plexiglass top for my shim board so that I can see the vapor. I will also either widen the current hole or use a smaller peice of pipe. I think that I will probably widen the hole so that the pipe fits snug and then glue the plexiglass to the shim and it will become my vapor shim tool. Then I will just drill a new hole in the body of the hive for ventillation and winter access. They are always filling the shim space up with comb anyway.

  As a side note. Yesterday I went through the hive top to bottom and cleaned all of the burr comb and excess propolys out of the hive and also took out two frames (10 to 9 frames now) in order to facilitate the even spread of the vapor. I looked close at everything and never saw my queen. Remember this is the queen that I got paint all over about a week ago. No sign... the girls seem happy... and there are eggs so I am assuming that she is there and doing well. Can't belive that I couldn't find her.....

Alfred
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2007, 07:14:28 PM »

Things need to be pretty tight and you need to be downwind.  Of course, if there aren't a lot of mites you won't find a lot of dead ones.  Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2007, 07:15:15 PM »

Not that I want to cause you worry, but it's quite possible that the paint injured the queen and she is now gone.
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2007, 09:43:08 PM »

I don't understand why someone would poison a hive with that stuff It just contaminates everything Yuck
kirk
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 12:04:46 AM »

Alfred, good you are trying to help your bees.  I think you said in a previous post that you have very very high mite counts and you must do something.

Kirk-o he is not poisoning his hive with the stuff nor is it contaminating everything.  He is using Oxalic Acid in vapour form.

It is a good idea to do some studying on how Oxalic Acid (and Formic Acid) work.  Google these, being informed is a good thing.  They are a form of chemical yes, but they are not anything close to the crap that people put in their hives that contaminate the wax, for example, cumouphos or fluvalinate.  These two latter products will contaminate the wax and the residue can be found in the wax.


O.A. and F.A. do not contaminate the wax.

The bees do not build up resistance to O.A. and F.A., such as the pesticides do.  It is a good idea to understand how pesticides work and how the mites build up resistance to them.

I think that the queen is OK, Alfred said that he saw eggs, so we know that she was there at least 3 days prior to his not seeing the queen today.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day on this great earth.  Cindi
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 07:12:10 AM »

I don't understand why someone would poison a hive with that stuff It just contaminates everything Yuck
kirk

Perhaps to save his bees? rolleyes

I don't understand why people insist on bashing people for using oxalic acid.  It is ignorant to believe that just because it is an "acid" that it contaminates everything and is as bad as the commercial varroa treatments.  As Cindi stated, you need to do your research before condemning the use. Perhaps you missed that "diamond" on Michaels site where he said he used it and LIKED it for interim control.  Ever eat sorrel, rhubarb, buckwheat, black pepper, parsley, spinach, chard, or  beets?  All of these have significant concentration of oxalic acid.

Yes,  we would all prefer not to treat with anything,  and a substantial amount of us are working towards that.  However, there comes a time where the only choice is treat or die.  Some prefer to treat.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 07:30:27 AM »

I certainly think the preferred method is to have a stable system that doesn't require the oxalic acid (or anything else).  But if you're not on small cell, don't have resistant queens, you can pretty much be assured that in two years the hive will be dead from Varroa if you don't do something.
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 07:59:55 AM »

Treating for the short term in order to give your bees adequate time to develop a resistance is okay IMO.  But if they can't adapt to some extent after a few years by becoming more hygenic and tolerant then it's time to look for more resistant bees.
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 09:09:23 AM »

I am more curious as to how this method was done. I beleiev  people use a elbow copper pipe and put a capful od wood bleach and heat w/ one end in hive and the other closed... But would like to know the particulars. OA is yet to be approved in the states as well.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 10:07:43 AM »

  Thank you everyone for the support! I am planning to look into the hive tomorrow or the next day when it warms up. It got cold the last few days. I'll look for the queen again and see what else has happened. I am going to make a new device. The one that I used the other day was two 6 inch pieces of steel pipe joined with an elbow. I put the acid in an end cap and put it on one end and put the other against the vent hole in my shim board at the top of the hive.  Then I heated it with a torch until I saw a little vapor escaping around the edge where the pipe was held to the hive. I used a piece of scrap wood with a hole drilled into it to hold it so I would't burn myself with the heat of the torch, and I wore a resperator and rubber gloves for safety with the acid. As I stated in a previous post I think that I want to get the pipe deeper into the hive and I want to be able to see what is happenning.

Thanks again for all of the support. This forum is really a god send for me. every one is so helpfull and I have learned so much from simply searching around past posts.

Blessings,
 Alfred
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 10:15:31 AM »

Alfred, hope it all works for you, you need to get those mite levels down really fast, you are doing the best you know how, and I take my hat off to you.

One day through hygienic bees and so on, I would love to be not requiring any treatments to keep mite levels at an acceptable level.  But that will take time, studying more, listening more, working more with the bees. 

Of course, that is the game plan I would hope for all beekeepers, to become informed and be the best keeper of bees that we possibly can, with the least use of any form of chemical whatsover.  But, there are times when we must treat if our colonies are in extreme distress because of mites, and I will probably never waiver from this opinion.    Have a wonderful and beautiful day in our life.  Cindi
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2007, 10:31:23 AM »

I am more curious as to how this method was done. I beleiev  people use a elbow copper pipe and put a capful od wood bleach and heat w/ one end in hive and the other closed... But would like to know the particulars. OA is yet to be approved in the states as well.


I have tried both the "crack pipe" method and the electric vaporizer method.   I prefer the electric version as I don't have to deal with a lit torch around the dried grass and leaves,  can get quite a distance away when vaporizing,  and can easily handle and refill the vaporizer without getting burned.

I have the JB200 12V electric one that I hook to my car battery with a 30ft lead.
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/downloads/beekeeping/JB200ElectricOxalicAcidVaporizer.pdf


Here's a picture of both my vaporizers
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 11:48:25 AM »



1) Loveland Colorado has now summer and hives have brood. Over 80% of mites are under cappings.
Oxalic trickling does not work.  http://www.wunderground.com/US/CO/Loveland.html

2)  OA TR. kills brood and makes more harm than mites. That is why you should use it when all brood have emerged.

3) Mites will die during next 2-4 weeks. Of course tens of mites should be dead on bottom next day.


There are about 20 good varroa treatment methods and trickling is one of the best if hives have brooding brake. - Do nothing is not included inside those 20 .

Oxalic acid really carefully tested in European Union. Trickling has invented in Italy.

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136437131

Why to use chemicals - What idea is after all keeps bees. It mere suffering. Take fingers off and let bees be free!

Know more, be less afraid !
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 07:49:00 PM »

Finsky,
Could you talk a little about lactic acid treatments.I see you mentioned it on a european site!
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2007, 07:49:08 PM »

My guess is by now it's freezing every night in Colorado and the queens probably quit laying about three weeks ago.  If they had the same dearth we did, they may have stopped sooner.
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2007, 06:12:55 AM »

.
I have still in my hives brood.  Reason is winter feeding which starts brooding again in samll scale. We met zero night teps 1,5 months ago.

But if you open every hives, there is a truth. You cannot get it from whole world.

However - we use to use oxalic acid when day tamperatures are under freezing point. Many have made too early trickling and they are mad because it has not worked. "They have not time to wait".

I have teached 2 years trickling to US, Canada and Britain on forums.  They knew almost nothing before I started in 3 forums. But still people like to use their own "systems" - why, I do not know.

European systems are very well documented in internet. Do not invenht your own. It is risky business
.

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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2007, 06:16:19 AM »

Finsky,
I wanted to know is lactic acid done the same way as oxalic acid?
I had not heard of this before.
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2007, 06:53:24 PM »

I just used the OA trickle on my hives as they were suffering a very high mite infest. There was no brood and so i figured all clear. Used the directions for trickle method on this site and it worked really well-tons of mites dropped next day at check and still dropping! This method was quick and easy and the bees seemed not at all effected. I was fairly conservative with the application-no more than the 40ml rec. even on my hive with two boxes. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will work out well but all looks good so far.
Does anyone have some advice for follow up after using this method? If there are still significant # of mites?
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2007, 07:04:11 PM »

Finsky,
I wanted to know is lactic acid done the same way as oxalic acid?
I had not heard of this before.

Lactic acid can only sprayed and it is laborous job. It is not any more recommend

Oxalic acid is the only one which we can trickle. Oxalic acid it very efficient against mites and safe for human consumption.
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2007, 09:55:18 PM »

Could it still be effective for a hobbiest?
Thanks for the reply!
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Cindi
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2007, 12:02:03 AM »

bberry.  I doubt if there will be any more significant numbers of mites fall. Cindi
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2007, 02:39:16 AM »

Could it still be effective for a hobbiest?
Thanks for the reply!

It is old fassion method and it is not recommend any more. Hobbiest or not - and 80% of  beekeepers are hobbiest - there is no reason to use old methods. Varroa is serious problem. It is not style question.


Many use in wrong way methods and they had problems. Even if you try to use in correct way, it may be missfortune.



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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2007, 02:44:00 AM »


Does anyone have some advice for follow up after using this method? If there are still significant # of mites?

Following is not necessary. It helps nothing.

IT TAKES ABOUT 2 WEEKS BEFORE YOU SE FINAL RESULT. HALF OF MITES HAVE DROP AFTEN 7 DAYS.
 
.
Finnish beekeeping specialist Ari Seppälä calculated from Finnish 
varroa trickling research  following lag time :
 
After
cure ---- rate of all falled 
1 week ---- 54 % 
2 week ---- 20 %
3 week -----13 %
4 week ------8 %
5 week ------5 % 
 
A finnish researcher Seppo Korpela has calculated during many years mites' drop
 
 year 2000  altogether 34468 falled mites 
 
1-2 weeks 96% 
3-4. weeks 2,4 % 
   
v. 2004 ... 10730 mites: 
 
1-2 weeks 98 % 
3-4 weeks 2 % 
 
Y  2005....  12270 mites 
 
1-2 weeks 96 % 
3-4 weeks 4 % 

FUMIGATION OF OXALIC ACID GIVES SAME FIGURES
 
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alfred
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« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2007, 12:47:15 PM »

   Here is how I did the vaporization. I used a shim board with a vent hole, duct tape, a piece of plexiglass, and some metal pipe.



   The pipe is two 3" sections and angle joint and an end cap where the acid crystals go. The hole had to be widened a bit to accomodate the pipe. The plexiglass was some that I had around from an old poster frame that I cut to size by scoring with a knife and then breaking off at the score marks.(careful very sharp stuff)



   I think that the down tube could be shorter, say 2". I used duct tape to tape the plexiglass on and also put a piece in between the pipe and the plexiglass where they came into contact so as to protect the plexiglass from the heat.



   I simply set it on top of the hive. I pluged the entrance and the openning in the back where my mite tray goes and my vent hole so that no vapor could escape. Then I used the torch to heat the pipe.

   I began by heating the pipe above the end cap first so that the vapor wouldn't condense inside the pipe. Then I put the torch directly on the end cap where the crystals are.



   It took longer that I thought it would to see vapor and then longer before it seemed like it had all been vaporised. the vapor sort of came in waves.

   I had a little leakage at the end cap but none anywhere else. I wore a respirator just in case.

   After all of the vapor was done I left the hive plugged up for about 10 min. Then took off my gizmo and removed the rags that I used to block up the hive and put the covers back on and the mite tray back in.



I really liked this method over simply inserting the pipe into the hive as I can see what is happenning. best of all is that over the next few days I had tons of dead mites on the tray and no dead bees!!!


Of course you all realise that my intent was not to kill mites but was to bleach my wood work. I would never use an unaproved method of pest control nor would I use a chemical product in any way other than for it's intended purpose......

Thanks to everyone for their help on this it seems to work really well and is simple and cheap. I probably spent $10-$15 and I have enough acid for a lifetime.

Alfred

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« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2007, 01:03:04 PM »

  I should add that I have done this three times now over the last three weeks. The first time was by simply inserting the pipe into the hive through a vent hole and the last two was by using the device.

  The device got way better results than the pipe alone. Many more dead mites. I think that this is because of a couple of reasons.

  I used more crystals  because I felt more comfortable after the first time that I wasn't going to kill my hive or have some sort of toxic mess to clean up.

  I was able to get the pipe in deeper than before.

  Mostly I was able to see the vapor and see that it was being vaporized and make sure that I had vaporized it all and that it was finished.

  The device allows me to not have to hold the pipe so I was able to heat the entire downside of the pipe so that there was no condensation. When I did it with just the pipe and holding it, I later found a lot of residue in the pipe so obviously less got into the hive.

Alfred
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2007, 01:06:39 PM »


. I would never use an unaproved method of pest control nor would I use a chemical product in any way other than for it's intended purpose......


Oxalic acid is very same if you heat it or give it as water solution. No difference.
OA leaves no residuals in honey or combs. It is very carefully researched by European Union project.


English officers did not approved oxalic acid but beekeepers just took it into use. It is only 20 miles sea gap between Europa and England.

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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2007, 09:25:43 AM »

Alfred, very good pictures and excellent accounting of your adventures.  Thanks, you did some good work there.  Have a wonderful and greatest of this day. Cindi
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2007, 08:23:23 PM »

When is it too late to use this treatment? As I've said, I found a farm where I can put some hives next year, but there are three hobbyist's hives already there, presumably abandoned, since the beeks have not returned to manage them. When I visit the farmer this weekend to scope out potential locations for my hives, I want to either encourage him to contact the beeks to find out if the hives are abandoned, then take them over myself and do a trickle. It's getting into the low 50s here for the highs, lows enough to bring frost. If these hives have not been managed, I can't imagine their condition. I'm more worried about them surviving the winter and collapsing in the spring to be robbed by my hives, and getting screwed by mites hitching a ride back. Treating these hives and losing them over the winter is less of an issue to me than getting screwed in the spring. However, if I can treat them now and in the spring and have them survive, I have some free bees.

I've got blocks of fondant to feed if they need it through the late winter, but I don't even know how these hives are set up at this point, not having even seen them yet. Pest are my concern, more than the boxes themselves.

Thoughts?

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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2007, 08:42:54 PM »

>When is it too late to use this treatment?

You can do vapor anytime.  It's probably better on a warm day when the cluster is loose.
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2007, 09:19:43 PM »

I don't have the equipment to vaporize, I was going to trickle syrup.
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2007, 09:25:58 PM »

I'm more worried about them surviving the winter and collapsing in the spring to be robbed by my hives, and getting screwed by mites hitching a ride back.
Thoughts?

If they survive the winter, the chances that they collapse in the spring is minimal as collapses usually happen in the Fall.  If they are heavily mite loaded, they will die during the winter.  If they survive the winter without treatment,  they have some type of mite resistance and I'd look to split from them.   

The way I see it your opportunity of getting mite resistant bees is worth more than the slim chances of your bees getting mites from them in the spring.    I'd leave them alone and reevaluate in the spring.  That would give the farmer more time as well.

BTW,  I'm still vaporizing and probably will for a few more weeks.
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2007, 09:43:08 PM »

I don't have the equipment to vaporize, I was going to trickle syrup.

You can buy the parts for a torch type for ~$10 at Lowe's.
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« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2007, 01:21:24 AM »

I don't have the equipment to vaporize, I was going to trickle syrup.

You can buy the parts for a torch type for ~$10 at Lowe's.

Why? Trickling is the best method when you use it before winter.

I have done yet trickling. Our temp is near freezing point now and it seems that permanent snow is coming.
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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2007, 07:04:53 AM »

>I was going to trickle syrup.

Pick a warm day when they are flying.
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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2007, 07:49:58 AM »

>I was going to trickle syrup.

Pick a warm day when they are flying.


Again what ? HuhHuhHuhHuh?

Trickling needs not warm day. That isit's strong side. It is better to trickle when temp is 0C-+5C.
Bees are in ball and they do not attack on you when you hive roplets on them.

Bees get dirty for sticky syrup and mites will die during next 2-4 weeks.
Why mites die, it is not well know.

*****

I have just now here snow rain and I will trickle my bees next weekend. Probably they cannot fly any more at all.


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Cindi
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Location: Grindrod, B.C. Canada


« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2007, 11:27:13 PM »

Finsky's quote:
Quote
Trickling needs not warm day. That isit's strong side. It is better to trickle when temp is 0C-+5C.

This is correct, it must be done before it is freezing and is not too terribly warm, do it when there is no brood present, trickling will kill brood, vapourizing will not kill brood if it is present.  Have a wonderful and great day, good luck, Moonshae.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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