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Author Topic: Apistan  (Read 7540 times)
randydrivesabus
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« on: October 17, 2007, 01:49:20 PM »

I went and joined the local bee organization and as a result am now on their list serve which is a lot like a message board.
Anyway, i've read on this board that apistan is not a good varroa treatment because the mites become resistant and it is harmful to the hive. Does anyone have any link to some research that supports this?
The last round of emails includes a recommendation by the entomologist at VA Tech who specializes in bees to treat with apistan if the mite count is above the threshold. I don't want to just talk off the top of my head since I'm the new guy and he's got a friggin' doctorate degree.
The bee group is the New River Valley Beekeepers Association.

A few minutes later...i've done some reading and found studies about mite resistance developing due to improper use of apistan and there is some mention of residual in the wax.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2007, 04:08:55 PM »

  check this out (problem is mites build resistance)           
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213617                     
heres a study http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/chaney/index.htm               
this stuff is top secret commercial guys stuff  cool  just remember 12.5% and you will be ok  RDY-B
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2007, 08:22:46 PM »

http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid1999/btdoct99.htm#Article3
http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid1997/btiddc97.htm#Item1
http://ag.udel.edu/enwc/faculty/dmcaron/Apiology/IPMFORBEEKEEPERS.htm
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part10.htm
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/food/inspection/bees/2003commodity.htm#intro
http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis92/apnov92.htm#2
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/beebriefs/Quality.pdf
http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/rural-nz/research-and-development/research-results/2002-2003/research-results-06.htm
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/criareinas/30_efectos_fluvalinato_cumafos_cria_reinas.pdf

And I'm sure I could find several thousand more if you like...

Try:
http://www.google.com/search?q=apistan+fluvalinate+detrimental+bees&hl=en&safe=off&start=10&sa=N
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2007, 06:31:39 AM »

"This from Bee Health News NBU South West Region; Beekeepers are complaining that their queens aren't lasting and supersede, sometimes within weeks of laying their first eggs. It has now been proven in the USA that Apistan affects drone survival and their sperm count. Also the queen weight is reduced when the colony is subjected to overdosing with Apistan. The answer must be breeding more fit drones, stop using Apistan, and reduce the overuse of other varoacides! Integrated Pest Management can help in reducing the exposure to chemicals."

could sterile drones that a queen mates with be a contributing factor to being superseded so quickly? this old timer thinks so. the coumaphos and fluvinate is absorbed into the wax. the coumphas in the drone brood comb makes the drones sterile. after years of repeated use, you might not have the strips in the hive but you still have the poison. i don't know if it does, but this very low dose of fluvinate could contribute to mites becoming resistant to it like a human getting a flu shot. plus wax is recycled and reused through the hive. just because your honey supers weren't on when you had the strips in the hive does not mean the wax in the honey supers are chemical free. i used to use apistan before i knew better. i've quit using it and other mite treatments entirely. who knows what they might find wrong in the future with the treatment you are using now. it took them a few years to find this stuff out about apistan. even treatments that are considered organic may eventually be found to have adverse affects on bees in the future. a hemlock tree is totally organic, but it doesn't mean that i'm going to make a tea from the needles and drink it! i've managed to cull out all the comb that was in my hives from when i used treatments.

>I don't want to just talk off the top of my head since I'm the new guy and he's got a friggin' doctorate degree.

just because he has a piece of paper doesn't make him right. ever hear of a malpractice suit? some people can't be argued with, but at least if you speak up other people will hear you and start questioning and try to learn about it instead of believing everything this guy says because he has a piece of paper.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2007, 07:41:40 AM »

Nancy Ostiguy at the Kansas Honey Producers Association meeting a year and a half ago said she believes the average queen is now superseded three times a year and she believes it's due to the chemicals in the wax.  Mine are marked and many are three years old.  But then I have no chemicals in my hives...
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Michael Bush
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2007, 08:27:29 AM »

I agree with you OT that just because someone has some degree doesn't mean they are always right. I have emailed the group offering to provide research links (thanks MB & rdy).
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2007, 10:31:16 PM »

When you put packages on foundationless frames and still have the queen replaced by supercedure I would say the problem was inherited from the producer. 
I found it interesting that the ony package I had supercede their queen this year was the one I put on plastic wax coated frames, because I decided to go for 4 packages instead of the 3 I ordered when I found out extras were available at the pick up site.

The only way to save beekeeping is to avoid chemical crutches and work at developing survivor stock.  Survivor stock is, and always as been, the only effective way of dealing with diseases and parasites. This is true with a lot more than just beekeeping.
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 06:05:09 AM »

So after posting about more organic means to control varroa and other techniques I've read about, and posting links to research, this was the response from Dr. Fell at VA Tech.....

"Randy raises a good point with regard to the use of Apistan.  One of our major concerns over the last 25 years has been the excessive use of chemicals in hives and we have been looking at not only the effects of different materials on colony health, but also at residues in wax and honey.  However, there are also several reasons why I recommended Apistan, if sampling showed that a mite treatment was necessary (and this is a critical point).  First It is easy to use and is probably the best choice for this time of year.  It is late in the season to treat colonies, and it is questionable whether treatments such as powdered sugar would be sufficiently effective to insure colony survival, especially since multiple treatments are needed over a minimum 3-4 week period.  It is also too late to try and control by drone brood removal.  Second Keith Tignor has looked at resistance of mites to Apistan and has found no real evidence of resistance in this part of the state.  At this point in time, the evidence we have indicates that Apistan should still be effective.   


The impacts of different materials on colony health should be a major consideration, but it is not as easy to answer as one might think.  For example, many so called organic treatments have just as much or more serious effects on colony health.  We have found that thymol causes significant reductions in sperm production in drones and that the viability of sperm in the spermatheca of queens exposed to thymol is lower than in non-exposed queens (a possible factor leading to queen failure).  In both cases the effects were greater than in drones or queens exposed to fluvalinate.  Formic acid is also often suggested as an alternative, but it  is not easy to use and can cause serious losses of both brood and adults in treated  colonies, especially at higher temperatures.  The other "treatment" often recommended is the use of screen bottom boards.  Screened bottom boards are not a treatment and have been shown to be only marginally effective.  In addition, I do not recommend screen bottom boards during the winter.  (The major reason for this is that screened bottom boards slow brood production in late winter and early spring.)


The choice of mite treatments is obviously up to the beekeeper and I will be the first to agree that we need better management approaches to controlling varroa.  I would like to see us move away from synthetic miticides, but we also need to consider colony survival.  We are working to improve IPM approaches to mite control and this is one of the major objectives of Nancy Adamson's research - combining tactics into an effective program.  However, I think it is also important to remember that not all suggested materials - organic or not - are safe, effective, or legal to use in hives."

anyway, i have to agree that this is kind of late in the season to start to check for mites. 
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 04:06:22 PM »

i'd like to see the research that supports his claims in regards to thymol. imo, the best way to treat for mites is to let the ones that can't handle them die then propagate the survivors.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2007, 10:34:09 PM »

Maybe they give him free apistan  grin RDY-B
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2007, 11:44:32 PM »

>>The other "treatment" often recommended is the use of screen bottom boards.  Screened bottom boards are not a treatment and have been shown to be only marginally effective.  In addition, I do not recommend screen bottom boards during the winter.  (The major reason for this is that screened bottom boards slow brood production in late winter and early spring.)

Evidently he's never heard of using a slatted rack between the SBB and brood chamber.  All my experience says the slatted rack creates a thermal layer of air between the SBB and the brood chamber.  I would say he doesn't recommend it because he hasn't yet been exposed to the solution or tried the solution.
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2007, 11:56:09 PM »

>>The other "treatment" often recommended is the use of screen bottom boards.  Screened bottom boards are not a treatment and have been shown to be only marginally effective.  In addition, I do not recommend screen bottom boards during the winter.  (The major reason for this is that screened bottom boards slow brood production in late winter and early spring.)

Evidently he's never heard of using a slatted rack between the SBB and brood chamber.  All my experience says the slatted rack creates a thermal layer of air between the SBB and the brood chamber.  I would say he doesn't recommend it because he hasn't yet been exposed to the solution or tried the solution.

it sounds like he does not even know to close the opening (slide in tray) below the screen either.
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Cindi
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2007, 11:32:42 AM »

imo, the best way to treat for mites is to let the ones that can't handle them die then propagate the survivors.

I'm afraid if we did that, there would not be enough bees to propagate the survivors.  Sorry...I don't agree with you.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day in this great ol' life.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2007, 12:32:04 PM »

imo, the best way to treat for mites is to let the ones that can't handle them die then propagate the survivors.

I'm afraid if we did that, there would not be enough bees to propagate the survivors.  Sorry...I don't agree with you.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day in this great ol' life.  Cindi

it took me a few years to get my numbers back up, but i did it, and i still do. i guess after 84 yrs i might have a little more patience with these things than the fast food eating cell phone talking whipper snappers that want everything NOW and can't wait for something better.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2007, 02:12:36 PM »

imo, the best way to treat for mites is to let the ones that can't handle them die then propagate the survivors.

I'm afraid if we did that, there would not be enough bees to propagate the survivors.  Sorry...I don't agree with you.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day in this great ol' life.  Cindi

Another thing is you might have colonies that can handle it but will never know because of the fear factor. But at the same time you have colonies that can't. Now by propping them all up with treatments this gives the ones that can't a chance to flood the bad genes into the good genes system. Now you end up with all colonies that can't. So the chance of have the bee numbers to propagate is right now, and it declines with every mating of bad gene bees.
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2007, 04:52:53 PM »

imo, the best way to treat for mites is to let the ones that can't handle them die then propagate the survivors.

I'm afraid if we did that, there would not be enough bees to propagate the survivors.  Sorry...I don't agree with you.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day in this great ol' life.  Cindi

Another thing is you might have colonies that can handle it but will never know because of the fear factor. But at the same time you have colonies that can't. Now by propping them all up with treatments this gives the ones that can't a chance to flood the bad genes into the good genes system. Now you end up with all colonies that can't. So the chance of have the bee numbers to propagate is right now, and it declines with every mating of bad gene bees.

Jerrymac, i couldn't agree more. this is the exact reason i'd prefer for them to die off over the winter so i don't have the bad drones flying about in the spring. if you have a dead out from the winter, it is easy to put a few frames of brood and extra bees from a good hive back into it. i've had to do it many times. the best way to do it is to force one of your good hives to make some queen cells and use these for your nucs.
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2007, 06:08:31 PM »

if you can order a queen that is bred for resistance from a reputable source like a minnesota hygienic, smr, or russian for about $20 why not do it? a few pints of honey would pay for that queen! i've read about these foggers you buy, all the acid treatments you buy and use, all the time spent testing and treating when you don't have to. you don't have to select for hygienic behavior yourself because there are people doing it for you! buy some resistant queens already mated so they don't breed with nonresistant drones.
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Cindi
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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2007, 12:31:24 AM »

Old Timer.  I get an impression that you are in your 84th year.  Hope my impression is not wrong  Smiley Smiley Smiley

I don't know why, but I have the utmost respect for our older generation, you have caste the way this country is.  I also bet you have been involved with bees since you were a young lad.  I love (and I mean love and respect) the older generation.  I take my hat off to you all that are a few years beyond mine.

I have never in my life spent more gracious and wonderful times than speaking with the Grandmother of my Husband before she passed from this earth.  She had the stories to tell of the days gone by when times were beautiful, hard and yet so simple.  Life was a hardship, she grew up on the prairies of Canada, she was a tough woman, and I loved every moment I spent in her company.  She was a role model for me in my quest for being honest, down to earth and loving my life.  Sometimes, I wish that I could turn back the hands of time, and live in the years before we had so many conveniences of this life we live......
 
This rambling probably should not be in this forum, but I felt compelled to speak my thoughts, my thoughts are clear and I have admiration for these leaders of mankind, those are the humans that have passed us in their years, and their experience is worth more than any of us younger souls could ever hope to possess.  Have a wonderful and great day, in our beautiful life.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2007, 01:34:53 AM »

>This rambling probably should not be in this forum

i disagree. you should speak your mind freely whenever you feel compelled to do so. if you did not i would be offended. angry it sounds like your husband's gramdma was a wonderful person. i'm sorry for your loss.

>Life was a hardship
especially if you were conscripted into service during the great war. i've had my share of hardships. i've seen  a lot of death and destruction and lost a lot of friends over there and a lot of family here through the years. Cry

>I love (and I mean love and respect) the older generation
and i thought the grandkids only came by so they wouldn't get left out of the will. Wink

>I also bet you have been involved with bees since you were a young lad
yes, let's get back to bees. i grew up around bees. i've had bees nearly all my life, so you have to excuse me if i sound like a know it all sometimes. cindi, you seem like a wonderful person. i'd like to see you get away from using treatments for your bees. some of the so called organic methods may not be any better than using the apistan we've been talking about on here. did you read the one post where the fellow at virginia tech in blacksburg va said that thymol is causing ill effects on drones and queens as apistan does, he says more harmful affects. i'd still like to see the reports from the research out of curiosity. how much did you pay for that fgmo fogger you bought? or the oxalic acid vaporizer? i bet you could've gotten some good queens, drone brood foundation, sbb, powdered sugar and a jar to shake it out of for the same price. not only will practicing good ipm techniques help, but if you have resistant or hygeniec bees also you should never have mite counts so high that you should treat. i did some sugar rolls the other day. i filled the quart jar almost halfway up with bees, this is a lot of bees to use, and shook, reshook, and shook again. i had a few hives that dropped a couple mites and i had some that didn't drop any. i'm not the worried in the least about the mites. wouldn't it be nice not to worry or have to treat? why drive a moped when you can have a harley or a fancy chopper? cindi, do me and yourself a favor and do some hygienic testing on your bees next year. if they don't exhibit the behavior, requeen with some that will. if you'd do it and take some picyures for me, i might be willing raise a few queens for you to replace them with. Smiley
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Cindi
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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2007, 12:17:10 PM »

Old Timer.  YOu are saying some good and interesting things.  I must tell you why I have such a fear of the varroa destructor, it has left me in a state where I have a hatred for these predators that suck the very life out of the bee and destroy the babies in their cells.  There is nothing worse in this world than to look at babies that have tried to emerge, but died in the process, with their tiny little tongues sticking out, begging for some food.  That is a horrible and nasty thought and something I cannot stand to witness, it makes my heart sorrowful.

This is my experience hands-on with the bees, I will attempt to keep it short (but that is probably a joke) Smiley Smiley Smiley  Maybe you will understand "me" a little better.

I began beekeeping in April of 2005.   I began with 4 package colonies and I caught an enormous swarm.  That made 5 colonies.  I had to do a combine with one of the packages because of inferior queen that was having lots of chalkbrood problems.  The following spring I got 4 more packages.  I did not treat for mites last year.  In the fall (now this was 2006), I did a mite count and the numbers were staggaring.  Hundreds........I even think that if I went into my records one of the colonies was maybe up as far as 700 or something.  I was astonished and by that time there was colony collapse, and I mean they collapsed.  It was too late to treat and I lost all of them but 1, these were all Carniolan breed.

This took me into spring of this year.  The overwintered colony (using a terrarium heater) was my pride and joy, it grew gangbusters and still is gangbusting!!!!

In early May of this year I got 4 more packages and 4 nucs.  I practised hygiene with these bees.  I have done the sugar shakes methods, I gave them all screened bottom boards and they did well with low mite levels.  When I did the 3 day sticky board mite count in September, the numbers were all very very low, one had none, the others had between 3 to 11, one colony had 66, that was a bit of a high count, but so be it.

This is where I stand today.  Yes, I bought the Oxalic Acid vapourizer, $80 CDN, shipping and handling included.  I will be performing the vapourizing soon.

I will do as you say, I will perform the testing for hygienic behaviour next spring.  If I could go without mite treatments, of course, I would love to be able to live this way.  It would be indeed wonderful to have queens that exhibit hygienic behaviours in their progeny.

You must elaborate on what you would like me to take pictures of. I did not understand this point.  I would be forever indebted to you if you ever should decide to raise some hygienic queens for me, that would be a lucky day in my life.  That would be only necessary if my queens did not exhibit hygienic behaviour.

As an aside, I may want to one day take you up on this gracious offer regardless.  This is why I say this.

The queens that came with my packages and nucs were Kona Italian.  I remember when I got the nucs, in particular, I was told that the Kona queens love to raise brood, but are not huge on the honey gathering.  I can honestly say that I think that he is 100% correct with this statement.  This was a wonderful thing for me this year with the first year build up of the colonies.  That was my intention, raising strong colonies to go into winter, to bring me the beautiful bounty of honey for next year.  This is my plan, lots of honey (smiling).  I give my family and my Husband's family (and my family is very very large, with 13 siblings on my Mother's side, there is many offspring from her Brothers and Sisters, and on my Husband's side only a few, but they are huge honey lovers of this golden substance that I give to them) as much of my honey as their hearts' desire.  That is lots of honey, but I give it with a smile on my face, knowing the wonderful benefits of this gold from the hive.  I have also given little tiny jars of my "healing" honey to them, little blobs of propolis that are suspended in this liquid for them to use for ailments of any sort.  I feel like I am prolonging their quality of life and this  brings me the greatest of joy.  I digress.....where on earth was I?  I don't know what happens to me when I set the keyboard in motion, it is like I can't stop.  I can type with the speed of light, so I have this gift of swiftness and it only takes a few moments to set my thoughts on the screen, I am a lucky woman to have attained this skill, bragging?  Nope, not meant to and hope it is not perceived this way, just grateful for the keyboard under my control  rolleyes Wink Smiley Smiley Smiley yeah!!!!!

By the way, Thymol is not registered for use in Canada, the same as Oxalic Acid is not registered for use in the U.S.. Funny thing.

Now I have really lost my train of thought.  Oh well, good to talk to you, Old Timer, and I love your name, by the way, it depicts wisdom and age.  Our sun is going to shine today, a little rain now, but the skies are becoming more light by the moment.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day on our great planet, Earth.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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