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Author Topic: I have had enough.  (Read 6149 times)
ooptec
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« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2007, 01:21:52 PM »

Hey,

In an article I read in National Geographic that there were no feral bees in N. Am. and the original bees came w/the settlers in 1622 at Jamestown This changed the landscape forever as w/the bees commercial crops that need pollinators were able to thrive.

cheers

peter
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« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2007, 01:45:58 PM »

I thought that in an article I read in National Geographic that there were no feral bees in N. Am. and the original bees came w/the settlers at Jamestown???

Just because there is nothing that proves that bees were here.

An absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.
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« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2007, 05:08:25 PM »

Hey,

In an article I read in National Geographic that there were no feral bees in N. Am. and the original bees came w/the settlers in 1622 at Jamestown This changed the landscape forever as w/the bees commercial crops that need pollinators were able to thrive.

cheers

peter

Peter,

The timeline I am refering to is the late 1980's with the invasion of the Varroa mite and it's affect on the feral honey bee hives. The issue of the honeybees being brought with the settlers is not the issue I am researching.

I am willing for right to accept that bees were brought in with settlers to the New World(for now). I may pick that battle later.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2007, 05:19:19 PM »

Typo:
Apis Cerana has an "e"

"Apis Ceranae"

Just my anal retentive nature of typos and correct spelling  Smiley Wink  Cindi




Hmmm. Lets research the spelling of the bee.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_cerana
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/disease/how-apis-cerana-keep-varr.shtml
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/157/1/19
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2000/02/m0208.pdf

Now I see a few spellings of it your way but not nearly as many. Now if you were to say Nosema Ceranae, I would agree with you.

But see stuff like this is why I am pulling my hair out. It is little details and I am far from a grammar nazi. But what are we going to do if people can't even agree on how the name is spelled let alone the difference between two species of mites or how many deaths are due to AHB.

Sincerely,
Brendhan



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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2007, 12:32:48 AM »

Hmmm. Lets research the spelling of the bee.


thanks for sparing me the difficulty.

i know people who live in ahb areas are having to deal with it. i don't blame you one bit for having questions and wanting answers.

http://www.stingshield.com/news.htm


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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2007, 09:04:43 PM »

My research is leading to a possible keystone report.
A Dr. Jim Tew wrote a report in 1999 called :
The Effects of Varoosis in North America – A Twelve Year Review

I have tried to find this report. I have sent an email to Dr. Tew also. I have not received an answer.
If any of you have a copy of this report or know where I can get please let me know.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2007, 10:49:57 PM »

It's probably been shelved or buried due to incomplete model of "scientific" data.  I'm betting that any estimate of the effect of varroa on feral honeybees is just that: an estimate.  It's like Mark Twain once said, "there are lies, darn lies, and statistics."  Estimates come under the heading of statistics.  +/- how many %?
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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2007, 10:08:40 AM »

Sometimes answers are slow in coming. That doesn't mean once I have started to bite your leg I am going to stop.  evil

This report, The Effects of Varoosis in North America – A Twelve Year Review has been a thorn in my side. It is heavily referenced. Malcolm Sanford mentions it several times in his a few of his reports. http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/threads/varroa.htm

Not to mention a google search on Effects of Varoosis gives you loads to look at. However Google Scholar is rather bleak. My friend who works at the newspaper reasearch department managed to get in and try to find it through lexus nexus and a few other things. He came back with out the report but said it would come back as a report because it was a presentation.

In the meantime I have been emailing Dr. Tew calling his secratary and finally I got a response the other day.

Dear Mr. Horne,
Many years ago, I presented a Varroa synopsis at the Apimondia meeting in British Columbia.  I probably did convert the presentation to a written paper, but I was unable to quickly find it on the web in either ABJ or Bee Culture.  I have converted my Power Point program to a pdf file and have attached it for your review.  Of course, this PP program was an outline for the verbal presentation that I gave - plus it was a short presentation.  I still have my old computer at home and will check to see if anything is stored on it.  Otherwise, my comments only may have been presented in verbal form.  Sorry.  I wish I could have more helpful.
jtew


Now here is the problem. Dr. Tew did a nice presentation on Varroa and it's effects. That presentation has become the keystone to a lot of other reports, articles, and disertations.
I don't think this is his intent.

The original problem was Dr. Hayes saying that Varroa destroyed 99% Of feral hives in Florida.

This is where I am going to make my first leap. I have not seen, found or been able to locate one peer reviewed scientific report that backs that statement up. The highest I have found was a report for Northern California that reported 75% loss in a small area.

Since there is no definitive research on the damage to feral hives on a large scale. You can toss out almost any number you want out there.

Here is the problem the research does not exist in a large enough and comprehensive enough scale to make anything other than an assumption.

Here is what I feel needs to be looked at in order to assist. The amount of calls exterminators received to remove feral hives between 1987 and 1995. If that number dropped dramatically depending on which state you are in than you might have something to assist your claim. however you are now dealing with an economic situation and not a biological one. However that information along with some of the good research that exists out there would give a much better picture.

At this stage I will say this there is no clear evidence on a large scale as to how damaging Varroa was to feral hives. The impact may range from almost none to near total devastation. Simply put it is not known.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

PS. Stand by for more.

Also Jerry put his foot in it again with the latest issue and his Q&A section "The Classroom."

Cindi, now do understand why I want to teach the masters program?
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2007, 12:08:17 PM »

Why is it so important that a scientifically verifiable number of feral hive losses be determined. For argument sake, lets say your search proves the 99% stat wrong. It turns out to be only a 75% loss, or 50%, or 40%. What does this prove. In my limited experience, I feel very comfortable saying there was a "drastic" loss of bees in the 90's. The inpact is still in effect now. I have lived w/in 4 miles of my present address. I have always been an outside person who always kept vegetables and flower beds. I have not seen a honeybee in years until I put my hives in my yard. I have not received any calls, not one for removals. Even if I had, does it mean they are feral, or left a hive two weeks ago? I must be missing something. The issues of lost feral bees and AHB is a red herring IMO. I think what you need to find out are the stats (%) of AHB w/in present day bee populations and the expression in attacks on people and livestock.

I think you already lost the public relations battle already regardless of whether your point of view is "good" science or not. My wife and I are planning a trip to Africa for 3 yrs from now. My 5y.o. nephew told me not to go. They have great whites(he knows I scuba dive) and killerbees said the 5 y.o.

I also thought of you when I read the "answer" in BC and knew you would want the "truth, and nothing but the truth."

I also believe settlers brought EHB, otherwise native americans wouildn't have referred to them as "white man flies." Circumstantial of course.
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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2007, 12:39:28 PM »

I understand most of your questions. I work for myself outside. I am outside for 7 months of the year the rest of the time it is to cold and snowing. My point is when my dad was alive we did bee removals we did a couple a year sometimes a couple a week never more than 5 miles from home.  Point is in the last 10 years I have not seen a swarm. Not one. There are only two beek within10 miles of where I live. There will be this spring I have my Nucs ordered.  Tony
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2007, 01:28:20 PM »

Quote
I also believe settlers brought EHB, otherwise native americans wouildn't have referred to them as "white man flies." Circumstantial of course.

The Indians referred to bees as white man's flies because of the white man's penchant for keeping skeps full of bees near their homes not necessarily because the white man brought the bees to America.  This was a practice completely forgien to Indians to farm flies--in fact, they farmed very little, mostly corn (maize), beens, squash, and melons.  Most everything else was obtained through hunting, fishing, or gathering. 
If you're going to reference something like that you need to understand the culture that generated the quote.  The proper perspective can change everything.  For instance if you put colloquial idioms into their proper use in the Bible it changes a lot of the accepted interprtations of verses--especially those made by Jesus.

Personally, I'm with Brendhan on this, too often bad science is passed on as fact by lazy researchers.  The IVAP with CCD is an example of the confusion this type of science can cause and it's going to be awhile before the effect of that erroneous finding is worked out of the system, i.e. the classroom section of BC.
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2007, 02:08:13 PM »



This report, The Effects of Varoosis in North America – A Twelve Year Review has been a thorn in my side. It is heavily referenced. Malcolm Sanford mentions it several times in his a few of his reports. http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/threads/varroa.htm


Really old stuff that report. Now it begins year 2008.
.
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2007, 02:27:08 PM »

Quote
I also believe settlers brought EHB, otherwise native americans wouildn't have referred to them as "white man flies." Circumstantial of course.

The Indians referred to bees as white man's flies because of the white man's penchant for keeping skeps full of bees near their homes not necessarily because the white man brought the bees to America.  This was a practice completely forgien to Indians to farm flies--in fact, they farmed very little, mostly corn (maize), beens, squash, and melons.  Most everything else was obtained through hunting, fishing, or gathering. 
If you're going to reference something like that you need to understand the culture that generated the quote.  The proper perspective can change everything.  For instance if you put colloquial idioms into their proper use in the Bible it changes a lot of the accepted interprtations of verses--especially those made by Jesus.

I understand your point. My source was Undaunted Courage, an historical perpective on the Lewis and Clarke Expedition.(Great Book). It suggests the indians called them that name because they preceded the white mans presence and had not been present prior to europeans. And it is only circumstantial evidence of EHB being new. Not conclusive in any way.
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2007, 02:28:18 PM »

Brendhan ... all went very well after our communication in Miami. Next time we shall make an effort to meet. Regarding the 'Killer Bee' name for what I find are to a great extent very mild bees under normal conditions. Let us try to get a name change and wipe clean the unfair reputation of the AHB as seen by Hollywood and the media. In Guyana and in paticular the Rupununi area, we are capturing many feral bee hives in both jungle and savanna conditions. To our great surprise, over 80% of the hives captured were super calm and non agressive. These are bees that have been wild for some time since over the past 40 years, no beekeeping was undertaken in this area. The Rupununi area also borders with Brazil and has had the influence of AHB from the very beginning. In time there appears to have been a change in the agressive nature of these feral bees and with some changes in beekeeping protocol, these bees are adapting very well to the few apiaries that have been established over the past months in various villages. This is a program that is being promoted among the local villages to increase fruit, nut and honey production for small farmers. The presence of varroa has also been found in most of the feral hives.
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« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2007, 06:46:52 PM »

Why is it so important that a scientifically verifiable number of feral hive losses be determined. For argument sake, lets say your search proves the 99% stat wrong. It turns out to be only a 75% loss, or 50%, or 40%. What does this prove.

You bring up some very good points. But I would like to look at them.
The 99% of feral hives being destroyed by Varroa is without backing. It is also being used as a scare tatic to tell people that all feral hives are AHB.
The party line also goes to saying that EHB have no ablity to resist mites without chemical treatment.
If 75% of feral hives were destroyed by Varroa. Why don't they look into why 25% survived and if those traits continued in future generations.
If the number is 50% or less. Than the Varroa issue was mishandled because if feral hives suffered those types of loses and beekeepers suffered dramatic loses (and they did). Then there is something in the way beekeepers are keeping bees that is not correct.

Quote
In my limited experience, I feel very comfortable saying there was a "drastic" loss of bees in the 90's. The inpact is still in effect now. I have lived w/in 4 miles of my present address. I have always been an outside person who always kept vegetables and flower beds. I have not seen a honeybee in years until I put my hives in my yard. I have not received any calls, not one for removals.
Again another excellent point. Is the reason that you have not come across any feral hives due to Varroa? Development? Enviroment? All items that should be given consideration.

Quote
Even if I had, does it mean they are feral, or left a hive two weeks ago? I must be missing something. The issues of lost feral bees and AHB is a red herring IMO. I think what you need to find out are the stats (%) of AHB w/in present day bee populations and the expression in attacks on people and livestock.
When you get done with your law practice. Please be a teacher you would be great for students out there. The discussion what is a feral hive can have some split hair issues. In this case I a saying a hive that has not received any beekeeper interaction and does not exist in a hive box.
Is it a red herring? You bet it is. Unfortunatly the Ag Dept for Florida is using a FUD campaign that is going to cause even more problems. According to the most recent stats Florida obtain 90% AHB on samples sent in for testing. A result that is at best very skued.
There have been anywhere from 14-19 deaths in 20 years from AHB in the whole US. Florida has lost one horse and several dogs and small livestock to bee attacks. Not all of which were AHB.

Quote
I think you already lost the public relations battle already regardless of whether your point of view is "good" science or not. My wife and I are planning a trip to Africa for 3 yrs from now. My 5y.o. nephew told me not to go. They have great whites(he knows I scuba dive) and killerbees said the 5 y.o.
You are very correct as far as the public relations thing goes. As I heard it once said I can either be right or I can be married. Here is where my problem comes in. Bad science gets picked up by the media and run all over the place. Good science while sometimes difficult to putinto simple terms often gets discarded. And currently in Florida, we are getting bad science out of people with PhD or Dr in their name and position of responsiblity. I find it frustrating when they espouse F.U.D. (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) and potential new beekeepers are put off by the very people that are there to represent us. They aren't elected either.
Quote

I also thought of you when I read the "answer" in BC and knew you would want the "truth, and nothing but the truth."

I also believe settlers brought EHB, otherwise native americans wouildn't have referred to them as "white man flies." Circumstantial of course.

That saying white man's flies I have sen referenced several times I accept it. I also have read several of the history reports as to when bees came into the US. The exact year is in dispute but did they come with settlers? You bet.

Konasdad. Thank you.


Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2007, 07:25:56 PM »

The discussion what is a feral hive can have some split hair issues.

I don't understand why it is so hard to figure it out about bees? What is a feral cat? One that is not in the care of humans. Seems easy to me. Or am I missing something?
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« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2007, 08:32:15 PM »

The discussion what is a feral hive can have some split hair issues.

I don't understand why it is so hard to figure it out about bees? What is a feral cat? One that is not in the care of humans. Seems easy to me. Or am I missing something?

And in most instances you would be correct. The problem is every feral hive in Florida is assumed to be AHB. Even if it is a hive that was a swarm from a hive box. A hive box with an unmarked queen can be declared AHB. Even if it is maintained.

If you have a hive that is not maintained for certain period of time (The amount of time is a debated item) a hive can be declared feral.

So as Konasdad mentioned a swarm leaves a hive two weeks ago. Looking for a home. Is it a feral hive?

Let's say you capture a feral hive and put it into a boxs is it now domesticated? How soon after you have them in a box are they domesticated. I know with cats it can be over two years. Yes, I still have some scars from my cat Futlity.

Cats and bees are not the same. However, I understand your comparission.

Sincerely,
Brendhan


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« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2007, 08:41:13 PM »

>native americans wouildn't have referred to them as "white man flies."

Lakota words for honey bees and related subjects:

It works out like English. There are bees, in general(t'uh'mun'ga), honey bees , in particular (t'uh'mun'ga tunkce) and bumble bees in particular (t'uh'mun'ga tanka) with the name for bee (t'uh'mun'ga) in both honey bee and bumble bee.

Lakota-English Dictionary Rev. Eugene Buechel, SJ 1983 edition Page 501 left column near the bottom:
t'uh'mun'ga tunkce - honey bee
(MDB note: I don't understand why, but tunkce in other contexts means breaking wind, perhaps because bees buzz?)
t'uh'mun'ga wigli - beeswax
t'uh'mun'ga tanka - bumble bee

as opposed to

Buechel: pg718 right column middle of the page
fly - tannicala

Buechel: pg 116 left column middle of the page.
canhanpi - tree sap - maple sugar - sugar

as opposed to:

An English Dakota Dictionary by John P Williamson 1992 edition page 84 right column:

honey-comb n. Tuh'mag'as'in

Also Dakota-English Dictionary by Stephen R. Riggs 1992 edition page 480 left column

tuh'ma'gac'esdi - honey


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« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2007, 10:09:23 PM »

Let's say you capture a feral hive and put it into a boxs is it now domesticated? How soon after you have them in a box are they domesticated. I know with cats it can be over two years. Yes, I still have some scars from my cat Futlity. 

Knowing you have "captured" bees, probably some been on their own for some time and could be considered feral, do you notice any difference between them and the ones you've had "domesticated" for awhile. I don't see any difference. Some I've cut out are very calm. Some I got from someone else were really mean. So I would consider them feral as soon as they leave as a colony from the care of a beekeeper, and domestic as soon as they are in the care of a beekeeper.

That includes AHB. Just because a hive goes hot doesn't make it feral, just as a calm feral colony is not domestic.
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« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2007, 10:34:18 PM »

Let's say you capture a feral hive and put it into a boxs is it now domesticated? How soon after you have them in a box are they domesticated. I know with cats it can be over two years. Yes, I still have some scars from my cat Futlity. 

Knowing you have "captured" bees, probably some been on their own for some time and could be considered feral, do you notice any difference between them and the ones you've had "domesticated" for awhile. I don't see any difference. Some I've cut out are very calm. Some I got from someone else were really mean. So I would consider them feral as soon as they leave as a colony from the care of a beekeeper, and domestic as soon as they are in the care of a beekeeper.

That includes AHB. Just because a hive goes hot doesn't make it feral, just as a calm feral colony is not domestic.

I agree completely. That is why a feral colony is a split hair issue.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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