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Author Topic: I have had enough.  (Read 5854 times)
Understudy
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« on: October 05, 2007, 02:21:05 AM »

Here it is nearly 2am. I am still banging my head over an answer Mr. Hayes gave in the October
2007 ABJ(American Bee Journal).

In it he answered a question given the title "Not worth the risk."
Part of the answer he gave:
Since 99% of all feral colonies dies years ago from the introduced varroa mite and the AHB shows some resistance, many wild colonies in Florida probably have AHB genetic introgression in one way or another any be safe or not.

I asked a question in the disease thread about AFB.

Basically I am now calling the research and science out. I would like to see it. I would like to read it.
I want the documents. I no longer an willing to accept the status quo. I need as much help with
this as I can.

I would like to have peer reviewed or acknowledged documentation on the following items:

How many people have been killed by AHB. I hear the current number is 18 in 20 years in the
United States.. I want the documentation on those 18 people and the tests confirming the
presence of AHB.

I want to know the path and level of destruction of the varroa mite on feral hives. Not domestic
hives, feral hives.

I want to know how many cases of AFB there have been in the past 5 years. I understand one
member here recently had a case. I would love to see the lab report. If you are a member of a
beekeeping club and can ask members for documentation on the listed items I would appreciate
it.

I would also if someone can point me in the right direction to find out how many people were
killed by fire ants, spider bites, snake bites and similar in the past 20 years.

I have gotten to the point where I am questioning whether or not the title killer bees is really
deserved.

I am not saying AHB are not more defensive or aggressive when provoked. But this may be a
relative matter. If 19 people died in 20 years from fire ants I am wondering if the issue regarding
AHB isn't just media labeling completely.

If feral hives generally make small cell when left to the wild for a few years. Wouldn't feral bees be
better able to handle the varroa threat?

The thing I am wondering is if there is any research on feral hives?

Also if AHB are somewhat resistant to varroa isn't that a good thing?

I understand the honeybee is one of the most studied insects out there. My question is what the
hell have they been studying for the past 200 years?

My current understanding is that queen stock is poor because of a shallow gene pool? Okay let's
see it. What about feral bees gene pools?

If I buy 50 queens from one dealer am I really getting a diverse gene pool?

Please feel free to send this to any bee group, science personnel, or other that may be helpful.
Understand I realize that this is going to put me in a somewhat awkward position but my gut is
telling me that more media hype is going out than real research.

Please understand I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Hayes. He is very helpful to me and to
other beekeepers. But I completely disagree with him on the issues of AHB and how to deal with
it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 09:56:13 AM »

you'll never be able to get some of the info regarding feral colonies b/c they were never quantified. How could they?
Additionally, I appreciate your zeal, but I would be personally be reluctant to accept bees w/ AHB traits, even if they might be superior from a beekeeping perspective. We as a gruop need tp promote beekeeping generally, and I beleive this angle you want to take, although well intentioned, is likely to scare the general public. Its hard enough to get the public to accept the docile bees we keep now. First things first. EHB first, then AHB from a marketing perspective. IMO. I have represented lots of difficult clients in my days, AHB would be just as difficult to promote.


Love fighting the good fight though!
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 10:07:03 AM »

Brendhan, you are losing sleep over this, you must get answers to help you to feel good about things.  Good luck, I wish you well and that you can have your answers that you must really need.  You are in an quandry, have a wonderful day, greatest of health.  Cindi
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 10:16:04 AM »

i am guessing that some of the AHB is presumed.  diagnosis made by circumstances, rather than lab tests.  that's common  with farm people.  probably with bee people. also, very often a lot of noise is made about research.  the noise attracts tax dollars for research.  once the money is in hand, little or nothing may be done.  if some research is done, it is often filed in case of audit, but not published unless it is something spectacular...and will attract more tax dollars.  

try calling colleges that have ag programs.  UC Davis, OSU (oregon, not ohio smiley), etc.  sometimes college kids are true believers and if they get to do the research, you may get some answers.  Davis might be especially good.  again, research money often goes into a department fund and is never seen again.  

don't know if you have Lexis Nexis access.  if you do not, you may be able to get it through your library.  they will probably charge a small fee.  any bee death is good copy and will have made the press.  in addition, you may find some medical studies that will help you out.

if i think of more after coffee, i'll add   grin
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 11:15:26 AM »



Part of the answer he gave:
Since 99% of all feral colonies dies years ago from the introduced varroa mite and the AHB shows some resistance, many wild colonies in Florida probably have AHB genetic introgression in one way or another any be safe or not.


If feral hives generally make small cell when left to the wild for a few years. Wouldn't feral bees be
better able to handle the varroa threat?



stuff like this is why I am not sold on small cell, you know this country was covered in feral hives before mites and if they build small cell after a few years then why did they die, I dont believe theferal hives died because they was a recent swarms or new hives. a lot of the feral hives that dies was feral for many years before mites, I have always believed it was the bee's that handled the mited and not the size of the cell, my hives do just fine on regular cells. there were a whole lot more ferals in the 80's than commercial hives I believe and if cell size is the reason they live then we wouldn't have lose as many feral hives like we did..... now im not saying SC doesn't work but if bee's do build cells smaller after a few years being feral then why did they almost get wiped out??? you know a lot of them feral hives that got killed was feral for many yearsand it just never added up to me.... just my 2 pennies worth.
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 02:07:58 PM »

Besides someone saying that someone told them that someone told them........ How do we know most all the ferals died off because of mites? So many other things could have killed them off from pesticides to fires...... People not wanting bees near them and they kill them off. Just so many things could kill them and yet it is said that the mite did it. Probably no one even paid attention until domestic bees died off and then they began to look.

But then there is the possibility that when the domestic bees died the ferals went to rob the hives and carried so many mites back that they couldn't even handle them.
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2007, 06:05:47 PM »

Thank you all for you answers. You all bring up the points I am thinking about.

I want to promote good beekeeping also. Here is one of my beefs. I think the media blows out of proportion the AHB issue. I think good beekeeping can and is being done with AHB. I think the tittle killer bees is wrong.

To my point I received this email from Dr. Vandermeer of the USDA Fire Ant research department.
Brendhan - 80 people have been documented to have died as a result of fire
ant stings - due to hypersensitivity to fire ant venom. It is likely that
others have died from hypersensitivity to fire ant venom, but have not been
documented.

Sincerely,


Robert K. Vander Meer
Research Leader
Imported Fire Ant and Household Insects Research Unit
Center for Medical, Agricultural, and Veterinary Entomology
USDA, Agricultural Research Service
1600 SW 23rd Drive
Gainesville, FL  32608 USA

Office: 352-374-5855
FAX:    352-374-5818
E-Mail: bob.vandermeer@ars.usda.gov
        or bobvm@ufl.edu
 




On 10/5/07 8:19 AM, "Understudy" <understudy@understudy.net> wrote:


>> Hi Mr. Meer,
>>
>> I have a question for you. How many people have died from fire ant bites?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Brendhan


The answer is nice and might even be correct. The folloiwing questions come up from his reply.
1. Over how many years is that total of 80 people? Is that one year or twent years?
2. Where are the reports and documentation to back this up?
At this stage I am no longer just willing to accept the status quo.

Let's assume for disscussion that he is correct and that it takes place over twenty years.
That would mean there have been way more deaths due to fire ants than AHB.
But the media last big report on Fire ant deaths was the nursing home incident.

I firmly believe that the spin on this in regards to AHB is this. AHB are not an issue. Are they more defensive sure but are they more likely to kill you? My answer to this would be no.

EHB kill plenty of people who have sensitivity to them. But here is some more fun the numbers of deaths from AHB range from 14-19. Let's go with 19 for the discussion. In a twenty year period. I do not want anyone to die from an AHB attack but I don't want them to die from and EHB attack or a Fire Ant attack or a snake bite.

The AHB in the south are here to stay. Methods to erdicate them have failed and only hurt EHB.

In a simple way. If you can't beat them join them.

AHB may have a mite resistance. They are great at collecting honey. They build up quickly. They do well in tropical climates. For me they are all big pluses.

Can they be mean horrible and nasty? Sure. So can EHB.

When I spoke to Dr. Jamie Ellis it wasn't the beekeeper that was his concern. It was the guy driving the backhoe a block away. Is this a reasonable concern? 6 months ago I would have agreed with you. I am not so sure now. Even if the bees did attack which is only a remote possiblity, the chances of death are even more remote. I am not saying a bee attack is a good thing. I just think that the media have caused a level of paranoia that is overblown.

What needs to happen is that the negative spin on AHB needs to stop.

I have a friend who does research for a newspaper he has lexus nexus access. I have already talked to him about getting answers.

Maybe small cell isn't the only reason for feral hives to thrive. I notice in feral hives drone cells are on  the outside pieces of comb. Brood is in the center. Now I have seen the studies showing the life cycle of the Varroa Mite and it hitchhiking on robbers to spread to other hives. However Varroa breeds inside the capped cell. They prefer drone cells. So if they are looking for good drone cells my assumption would be that they are going for the outer drone cells. Maybe there are some in the brood but a healthy hive can survive with a certain level of mites. Drones get easier access to other hives also. What I need to do is to look at more research to confirm this or show the opposite and to find out how Varroa affect feral hives.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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genesbees
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2007, 06:17:27 PM »

Brendan,

There are a good number of studies out of Texas A & M regarding feral bee populations, but they all cover areas in Texas.  The latest study covering my area was done in 2005.  The results are pretty irrefutable, since they used mtDNA analysis to identify the matrilines of the bees.  Samples from aerial pitfall traps indicated that about 40% of the bee population are of AHB matrilines and the rest were divided between the Egyptian honey bee and EHB.  So indications are that a pretty large percentage of feral bees are of AHB origin.

There is no doubt the their presence is on the rise here in Texas.  We have had at least 4 stinging incidents this year with at least two fatalities that I can recall.  So I would not count on the 18 deaths in the last 20 years statistic holding as their presence continues to escalate.

All that being said, I would agree that there is a considerable amount of media hype associated with the AHB and that they are not quite the "monsters" that the media and others would have us believe.  After all, the beekeepers in S. Africa keep them and manage them in much the same way as we do the EHB.  However, the stinging incidents in S. Africa are probably not covered nearly as widely if at all so I don't know how valid that comparison would be.

I do feral cutouts in my area and keep the colonies, but I also have them tested for their mtDNA source and any that are AHB matrilines are either re-queened or destroyed.  Research seems to indicate that colonies that are headed by an AHB matriline queen are much more likely to develop the super aggressiveness when their daughters are mated to AHB drones (as would very likely happen during supercedure), so the best defense is to make sure that your colonies are headed by EHB matriline queens and keeping lots of drone comb in them so that you flood the drone pool with EHB drones.  Vigilance in keeping track of your queens is paramount, since if a few AHB queens slip in, those colonies will start kicking out lots of AHB drones.  By the time one of them is superceded and becomes aggressive, you have already seriously contaminated your drone pool.  This certainly does add to the overhead of keeping bees in AHB territory.

I don't know if this helps you much, but I would not get too gung-ho about keeping AHB.  The facts are out there that they can and will attack more readily and in greater numbers than EHB.  As their prevalence becomes more dominant, the stinging incidents will continue to increase.  Just by keeping EHB in AHB territory, you will not be able to keep their genetics out of your stock.  I would take a lesson from the beekeepers in Mexico and points south.  They have found that by using EHB breeder queens to generate the open mated daughter queens to head their hives, they can manage bees in AHB dominate territory.  Is it more work, yes for sure.  But it is probably the only approach that is going give the public much confidence that AHB are manageable.  Also I don't know about in your state, but here in Texas it is still against the law to knowingly keep AHB in managed hives.  At some point in time, that will probably have to change since the AHB genetic material will eventually creep into most Southern/SW US beekeeping operations regardless of our efforts.  But at this point, I think an attitude of "since it is inevitable, I might as well embrace AHB now" would not be well received and could land one in a good bit of "hot water" legalwise if you know what I mean.
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2007, 06:42:19 PM »

genesbees

Do you have a contact at Texas A&M?
Were any of the studies on Varroa and feral hives?

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2007, 06:45:55 PM »

I found a contact for Texas A&M. I am sending an email.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2007, 07:37:10 PM »

Brendhan, pseudoscience or hearsay science is pretty frustrating.

As Kathyp said, no doubt the actual statistical danger is overstated by the media. They don't do it on purpose. It's mostly lack of good journalism education on things like statistics and risk. You don't get much better a horrific story than an AHB stinging incident. And if you're worried that someone else will cover it and you don't, you cover it to avoid being scooped.

In 2006, accidents on constructions sites killed 1,258 people. More than 500 people were murdered in their workplaces. Statistically, it's pretty unlikely that AHB will kill that many. You can read these stats and some others at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Here's the relase that my stats above came from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm

BUT, people are more afraid of things that they are less familiar with and over which they feel they have little control. Highway accidents kill way more people than other things we do, but folks still drive cars because they have confidence in themselves. So folks fret about West Nile virus and AHB and still smoke, eat at McDonalds and spend all their time flopped on the sofa. Humans are really not very good at weighing risk.

In healthcare PR, we deal with this aspect of human psychology all the time. The only time folks want a flu shot is when there is none available.

My guess is that Hayes meant "many" or "most" not actually 99%.

I think AHB could eventually lead to changes in the beekeeping industry where it becomes established. As in other countries where they deal with, the answer may be in protecting the hives better from intrusion and locating them further away from habitation. That's a pain, but not the end of the world.

I agree with you, I'd like to see better science in all of beekeeping, from varroa and trachea control to CCD and AHB. There's plenty of topics for study.

Good luck pushing the envelope,

Kev
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2007, 09:30:35 PM »

Bottom line, if you have an aggressive colony, first re-queen, at the same time, collect about 50 to 100 bees and put them in a vial/bottle that can be sealed. Send them off and have them tested.
In a way it really doesn't matter about the testing except for the record, for "We" the beekeepers.
No one else seems to care anyhow except the media for a good story they can blow-up.

And remember, an aggressive colony doesn't mean AHB. The older the queen gets the more aggressive the workers become.
As for feral colonies, I have been having bees come to my yard from the time I started keeping bees.
As a matter of fact the first bees I bought died and all I had left was a colony that came from somewhere and the closest beekeeper is 12 miles.

Remember the little green men in the 50ties?

doak
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 09:41:04 PM »

doak

My little group of hives is not the issue. My concern are the current stats and science out there.
And even if I had AHB hives I wouldn't know because my hives are very nice. That may also be part of the issue. See not all AHB hives are mean and nasty. They are more inclined to be so.
But some are just fine. The problem is when 80 people die from ant bites. 19 from AHB. And only the AHB get coverage.

My concern is people saying that varroa destroyed feral colonies and there being no science to back it.

I need the bottom line in this case to be good science. I need to be able to say to the people who come to my presentations what is going on. I need to be able to teach people about bees correctly. It is hard enough to deal with the misinformation out there. It is really hard when it is coming from reputable sources.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 10:21:05 PM »

Correct on the feral colonies.(WHO) has gone out there and covered "ALL' the area of this Land?
Second, take this to the scale and weigh it, then you can take to the bank.

Anytime, anywhere someone gets stung and dies from a bee sting. The first thing looked at, is there any beekeepers in the area? next, if so, it was "killer bees."

Now, AHB venom is no different from European bees. Bad part so many attack at once.
My bees even do that. Any one who is highly allergic to bee stings only needs one sting.
How many of those people died from a Honey bee sting that wasn't AHB and that person had a fatal allergy to bee stings.
There has been proof that the evaluators for some things use statistics  that doesn't play a part in what is being evaluated. Some one died from Multiple honey bee stings. Thats all they need to know.AHB's
The media will pump up a story if need be.

Maybe the varroa did kill all the true feral colonies, but what do they call the ones out there that swarmed from someones yard and they didn't recover them?

They can tell by the venom whether it is a honey bee or hornet, wasp, yellow jacket, etc.
I would like to have some answers myself, but as long as we have what we have, we will get what we get.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
Problem with hard cold facts, Politics makes them no better, sometimes just worse.
At the same time these people giving all this info and stats are saying the only way to fight all this stormy stuff is for the small beekeepers like the ones on this forum to keep bees and help the honey Bee fight for its rightful place in the System.

There are so many anti, anti, anti's out there today it is sometime hard to find ones way through the maze.
doak.
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 11:22:06 PM »

the reason the media is taking off with this is because the AHB's are new, the media in Texas, new Mexico, Arizona and California dont talk about it unless someone gets attacked, Florida is new to them and they will blow it out of the water to make a story, this is nothing new, all the other states did the same thing at first......
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 10:50:47 AM by TwT » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2007, 01:45:47 AM »

I remember fire ants being in the news quite often in years past. They were going to devastate livestock all over Texas. Now? Nothing.
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« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2007, 09:00:16 AM »

well, lets just go ahead and import some apis cerana (asiatic honey bee) too and pretty soon no one will easily be able to maintain a pure stock of ehb anymore. they have coevolved with varoa and demonstrate exceptional grooming ability to deal with the mites. their downfall is they have smaller colony numbers and have smaller honey yields than ehb. on the other hand, they don't have the aggressive behavior and other undesirable behaviors of the ahb. i would bee more in favor of them than the ahb, but i am unwilling to promote the propagation of either species.   
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2007, 11:20:37 AM »

brendhan,  i wish you well in this.  the answers would be interesting.  i am afraid that you are probably going to find that "good science"  is pretty hard to come by.  there is usually an agenda attached somewhere......
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« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2007, 11:43:19 AM »

I don't think Apis Cerana is the import and more than I think Cape bees are the answer to AHB.

I think the bees are capable of dealing with Varroa if they are healthy.

I do think that the AHB is a good bee despite it's bad reputation.

Those two items conflict with the idea that the Varroa destroyed 99% of feral hives when they came to the US. And that AHB are nothing more a dangerous bee that should be eradicated.

However there may be research out there that says I am wrong. I will gladly change my mind when I read it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan


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« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2007, 11:50:19 AM »

Typo:
Apis Cerana has an "e"

"Apis Ceranae"

Just my anal retentive nature of typos and correct spelling  Smiley Wink  Cindi

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