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Offline Jerrymac

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Rising seas
« on: September 24, 2007, 03:09:37 PM »
I just watched a video about the oceans rising because of global warming and melting ice. In this video they show a bunch of icebergs and a thought occurred to me. Way back in elementary school they showed us a glass full of water with ice floating in it. The water was right up to the rim of the glass and the ice naturally was up above the water level. How ever, the water would not over flow the glass as the ice melted.....WHY?? Because the welted water was just replacing the water the ice had displaced. No rising water. I am not sure how that works with salty sea water an fresh water ice. Does more water come from the melting than the ice displaces?

How ever. There are the glacial ice packs and other ice on land masses that could possibly melt and raise sea level.

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Offline Understudy

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2007, 03:13:09 PM »
In dealing with icebergs 80% of the iceberg is below the surface and is turning into water faster than the rate of evaporation. In a (nearly)still glass of water the rate of evaporation will keep up with the melting ice cube because the water isn't moving against the ice as much as the currents in the ocen are.

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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2007, 06:00:28 PM »
evaporation has nothing to do with it. A pound of water makes a pound of ice that is then displacing a pound of water. There fore when the pound of ice melts into the pound of water, the pound of melting water replaces the pound of water that was displaced by the pound of ice.

But sea water, being heavier than the icebergs ice that is displacing it, then causes the sea level to rise as the ice melts. 
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2007, 06:02:14 PM »
If you go with the evaporation theory then remember, you have the evaporation happening all over the world in massive amounts as that ice berg is trying to melt in one small area.
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Offline Understudy

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2007, 06:17:12 PM »
The glass of water works on evaporation and displacement. So yes the ice displaces the amount of water it replaces. However on a global scale you are dealing with something known as mass balance. The difference between the ice input and output. And it can cause the sea levels to raise. The two big concerns are the ice shelves of Greenland and the Antartic. If these two melt the sea levels will change dramatically.

edited due to brain fart.

It's not quite as simple as the elementary school experiment. I tried to keep it that way and didn't. That was my mistake.

Sincerley,
Brendhan
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2007, 06:27:08 PM »
Icebergs are fresh water which is heavier than salt water so those ice shelves melting head lower in the water table.

Did you word that correctly? Then you wrong. Fresh water is "lighter" than salt water.
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Offline Understudy

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2007, 06:32:52 PM »
You are correct I reversed my thinking on that for whatever brain fart reason that is two in a row. I must be having caffinee withdrawl. Where is my Mountain Dew?

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Brendhan
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Offline Mici

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2007, 07:43:44 PM »
with satelite photos you can see ice expanding and shrinking yearly, but do we see the sea level moving? no, that's because in "winter" time, the ice on the south pole shrinks but the one on the north expands, in "summer" it's vice-versa.
ok so..i totally made this up, but wouldn't be surprised if a "global warming scientist" would explain it like this, LOL.


i actually got interested in the sea level rising thing so much that i did the calculations. all though rough and all, but from being convinced 6m is waaay too much..it is possible. on the other hand, you have looney saying 50m.

BUT, warmer climate means that the atmosphere can and will carry whole lot much water.

i don't believe sea level will raise, because if it would, it would have been mentioned in historical writtings from the year-around 1000, when temperatures were much higher.

also, i do not know, how much of the the "permafrost" is located on shore and how much is already in the water, but jerry is right, a pound of ice displaces a pound of water, so there should be studies about how much of the glaciers and other icy stuff are actually on solid ground.

Offline KONASDAD

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2007, 10:59:24 AM »
Interesting logic! I wonder where additional rainfall falls into this equation. The ice in water in a glass is static, while the world is dynamic. Far more complex than a glass of water analogy i would presume. In addition, doesn't water expand when it freezes and reduces its volume when water? Therefore ice takes up more room than water. I have personally seen evidence of glacier melt in Baamf Canada(columbia ice fileds). They show where the glacier was w/ year markers placed along the mountaninside, and it has definately accellerated since the fifties. Amazing to see these markers stretched out across the mountainside.
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 11:25:30 AM »
In addition, doesn't water expand when it freezes and reduces its volume when water? Therefore ice takes up more room than water.

Yes That is why ice floats. But as I said, a pound of water makes a pound of ice. Even though the water expanded when it froze, it still only displaces one pound of water. There fore the water level in the glass neither rises or falls during the process.

There is no extra rain. Sea water is constantly evaporating everywhere. Much more in some places than others, but it still evaporates all over. And since all the oceans are connected it constantly equalizes the level all over (except for the tidal pull of sun and moon). Then somewhere there is rain caused by the condensation of all this evaporated water. So the evaporation and rain fall equals each other out. 
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Offline Understudy

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2007, 11:54:27 AM »
http://www.physorg.com/news5619.html

1. The ice on the antartic(South Pole) and Greenland is on a land mass and not floating. That is why it is a concern.
2. The melting of freshwater in seawater will raise sea levels. There is however not enough ice in the artic (North Pole) which is not on a land mass to cause a huge difference. It will cause a difference but not enough to cause massive flooding.
3. The breaking off of large chunks of the shelf ice is a indicator of global warming. For the simple reason that that ice is not being replaced at the same rate as it is thawing.

If you wanted to equate the ice with the glass of water experiment. There are two ways to do it.

1. Fill the glass with salt water and then place in the ice cube(freshwater). The ice cube melts and water level rises.

2. Fill the glass with salt water. Place a strainer above the glass and fill it with ice cubes(freshwater). The strainer would represent the land mass supporting the ice such as Greenland and the Antartic. The ice melts and the water level rises.

I found my Mountain Dew.

Sincerely,
Brendhan




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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 12:42:13 PM »
Now go back and read what I first wrote. Did I not mention land mass with ice on it?  :roll:

And did I not say

I am not sure how that works with salty sea water an fresh water ice. Does more water come from the melting than the ice displaces?

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Offline kathyp

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2007, 12:58:15 PM »
so we just need to build more desalinization plants and refill the underground reservoirs and re-balance the salinity of the oceans?  see...simple solutions!

oceans must have risen before.  lots of ancient cities under water....or maybe land sank....maybe my beach house will be ocean front instead of one street back from the beach.  maybe my farm will be ocean front!!!

maybe it will warm up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  i'm freezing here!!!!!!
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Offline Understudy

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2007, 02:29:45 PM »
Now go back and read what I first wrote. Did I not mention land mass with ice on it?  :roll:

And did I not say

I am not sure how that works with salty sea water an fresh water ice. Does more water come from the melting than the ice displaces?


You did and I had a couple of brain farts so I thought I would clarify. Just for my peace of mind if no other. :)

Sincerely,
Brendhan

« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 11:31:58 PM by Understudy »
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 04:14:12 PM »
I have that problem sometimes.  Brain gas?
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2007, 11:28:57 PM »
>>You did and I had a couple of brian farts so I thought I would clarify.

I might be an old fart but I believe you meant Brain.
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Offline Understudy

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Re: Rising seas
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2007, 11:32:55 PM »
 :-D

That was me fat fingering the keyboard.

 :-D

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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