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Author Topic: oxalic acid treatment  (Read 5201 times)
sean
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« on: March 11, 2008, 11:30:45 AM »

Ok here we go again. In my setting where there is always brood and most times honey what is the best method of treating varroa with oxalic acid. 
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 02:58:11 PM »

Can you cage the queen?  That is the only way to make sure that there isn't any varroa in the brood.  I've heard of some tropical areas doing that.  Without that you'd have to do multiple treatments, and while that is hard on the bees, perhaps yours can recover enough that it won't matter.

Other than that, can you use formic acit? that is supposed to penetrate the brood .

Rick
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 08:35:34 PM »

When there are no supers, you can evaporate oxalic once a week for three weeks with very good effect even with brood in the hive.  But the less brood the better:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm
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Michael Bush
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bibi
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2008, 09:54:53 AM »

Just forget oxalic treatment... it's just a waste of time.... why not try simple water, with a cross sign ? you may have the same results.... I am sorry to say that, in one way... I would have appreciated so much to be usefull ... In the same time, it destroys the bees guts. To make believe people in such practise is a short term non-sense. It's more than my little poor personnal thought, it is just experience. Regards.
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Robo
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 10:07:55 AM »

Just forget oxalic treatment... it's just a waste of time.... why not try simple water, with a cross sign ? you may have the same results.... I am sorry to say that, in one way... I would have appreciated so much to be usefull ... In the same time, it destroys the bees guts. To make believe people in such practise is a short term non-sense. It's more than my little poor personnal thought, it is just experience. Regards.

Any research or studies to back up your statements?   I've seen plenty of studies and research showing it does work.  Would be interested in any information you have.
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bibi
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 03:52:37 PM »

Easy, my friend, here it is! ... and my own poor experience of oxalic acid....
but yes, it does kill some mites...
Attached is full PDF file.

Instituto Nacional de Investigación y Tecnología Agraria y Alimentaria (INIA) Spanish Journal of Agricultural Research 2007 5(4), 474-480


Short term negative effect of oxalic acid

in Apis mellifera iberiensis

R. Martín-Hernández1*, M. Higes1, J. L. Pérez1, M. J. Nozal2, L. Gómez2 and A. Meana3

1 Centro Apícola Regional. Junta de Comunidades de Castilla-La Mancha.

19180 Marchamalo (Guadalajara). Spain

2 Departamento de Química Analítica. Facultad de Ciencias. Universidad de Valladolid.

47005 Valladolid. Spain

3 Departamento de Patología Animal I (Sanidad Animal). Facultad de Veterinaria.

Universidad Complutense. 28040 Madrid. Spain

Abstract

The toxic effect of oxalic acid (OA) on Apis mellifera iberiensis was studied using field and laboratory assays. Bee

deaths were higher in OA treated hives than in control hives. Pathological repercussions of topical application of 10%

OA were observed in different internal honeybee organs. After 24 h, there were severe alterations in the ventricular

epithelial layer while by 48 h there was clearly seen degeneration of the rectal epithelium. Irreversible lesions appeared

at 48 h in different bee organs with increased cellular damage after 72 h. Indications are that the effect of the OA

continues after initial contact and causes permanent lesions in digestive and excretory organs. Tissue distribution of

the acid in different bee organs, after topical administration, suggests that some of the acid is ingested, in some way,

by the bee.

Additional key words: honeybee, insect toxicity, internal lesions.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 06:56:10 PM by Robo » Logged
Robo
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 03:54:38 PM »

Please forward the links to the PDFs to photos@beemaster.com  and I will get them appended to your post.

thank you
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bibi
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 04:32:36 PM »

Done !
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Robo
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 06:58:10 PM »

bibi,

I have attached the PDF file to your post.  Thank you for sharing and welcome to the forums.  I'll pint out a copy and add it to my things to read pile.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 09:58:40 PM »

I've only vaporized the oxalic and saw no ill effects even when vaporizing once a week for three weeks.  The research on "trickling" is that it does damage the malpighian tubules which shortens their life enough that two treatments is not recommended.
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bibi
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2008, 03:58:46 AM »

The main fact is that if you gentle treat the varroa, with a "Perlimpinpin" powder or water, you think that you have reduced the number of mites. That's true. But when you think, that your colonies, may cope with a reasonable number of mites, there you are wrong. If the weather, especially drought, reduces the crop, you will see a difference in the brood. Even with brand new queens. And very few mites( let' say less an a hundred). If you keep up with feeding with syrup, things will get worse, because the bees need more proteins to transform the syrup. You will see with a acute eye, all kinds of troubles, spotted brood, chalkbrood, EFB, canniblism, and with an expensive analysis , Nosema Cerenae, IAPV, etc, etc... and finally the famous CCD. Of course you may have colonies dying of insecticids, but that's another topic.
So CCD, in my opinion, and I don't pretend to have the truth either, only experience is talking, is a kind of "Pearl Harbor" of varroa mites, on a deficient of proteins colony. Please excuse my poor english, but you have the main lines.
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Cindi
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2008, 09:58:45 AM »

I do not have time right now to look into this post more deeply, we are leaving for a week on a vacation, but I will have access to the internet now and then, or maybe more frequently.

Oxalic Acid tricking (with sugar water) does cause damage to the bees guts, intestinal tracts, etc., yes, 100% true. And yes it can also cause damage to brood and queens.  That is why it is recommended to only treat with the trickle once per year and ONLY ONCE PER YEAR.

On the other hand, VAPOURIZING with oxalic acid where the fumes are the only contact with the bees does not cause any harm to the brood, nor the bees.  Period.  This is known fact.  Oxalic acid vapourizing can be performed as often as required with virtually no ill effects on the bees OR BROOD.  As with any chemical intervention, these actions must never be performed during a honeyflow (or 45 days prior to), UNLESS there is no anticipated gathering of honey for human consumption. 

Oxalic/formic acid is even found naturally within many plants in nature, also is found naturally in trace amounts in honey as well.  It is part of the chemical make up of honey.

Oxalic Acid is not the only chemical that has been used for vapourizing.  I recall another forum member, whom I haven't seen here in some time, who uses vinegar for vapourizing and has excellent results as well.  Just my two cents, have a most wonderful and greatest of days, Cindi
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2008, 11:09:30 AM »

Sean is in Jamaica and has little to no access to other treatment methods available to many of us. OA is inexpensive and available throughout the world.
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bibi
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2008, 12:57:21 PM »

Ok, that's interesting... because of a different climate and vegetation... Does he suffer from CCD Huh When does it occur since there is no winter... I'm going to check what he has posted....
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beekuk
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 12:32:45 PM »


 Have used the oxalic acid sublimation as well with good effect,but takes much longer,more expensive,and can be harmful to the beekeeper. Have now used the oxalic acid trickle method for 6 years with good effect in winter in broodless hives. 3.2% mixture,can easily treat 180 colonys a day,very cheap, and have not seen any ill effects at all.
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rast
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2009, 07:52:45 PM »

 MB-"I've only vaporized the oxalic and saw no ill effects even when vaporizing once a week for three weeks."
 I also.  Treated the end of Nov, first of Dec. Hive inspections yesterday all showed good. A couple are going to need supers next week with with the maple bloom starting this past week.
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Cindi
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 11:46:25 AM »

As an avid user of oxalic acid (and I would use formic acid as well, without a moment of hesitation), I am for the O.A. sugar syrup tricking or vapo0urizing.

One of the advantages of the vapourizing is that it does not kill brood and can  be used at any time of the year, EXCEPT when a honey flow is going on, (unless no honey is going to be taken for human consumption).  That is a given, to NEVER treat with anything during the honeyflow.  Oxalic acid syrup trickling CAN kill brood, that is why it must be trickled only in the fall/wintertime when no brood is present, or at the time of year when LITTLE brood is present AND ONLY ONCE PER YEAR, period..... and NEVER DURING A HONEYFLOW, unless no honey is expected to be taken for human consumption.  If one is not going to harvest honey for human consumption, either trickling or vapourizing may be used on the bees.  Both treatments are efficient, kill down mites efficiently and immediately, with amazing results.  I am a user of Oxalic Acid, am not afraid to say it, and have bees that have pretty much zero mite populations, except for what they pick up during the spring and summer.  One day I am pretty sure that I will not have to use any chemicals in the colonies, that is my quest in life, but for now, I require healthy, colonies, ones that are as mite free as I can get them, this is how I do it.  Have a wonderful and most awesomely great day, health.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
beekuk
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 04:45:39 PM »


 Cindi. 
           Your post above are my sentiments exactly,have formic here as well which i use on occasions,in fact when we first got resistant mites in the area i live in,which was the first area in uk they appeared first,it was formic that saved a lot of colonys.Just that its more temperature dependant,like thymol.And i'm sure none of us wants to treat our bee's with anything,but we do the best we can to keep them alive,and healthy,until such time we have more resistant bee's,which in uk is not yet.
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Patrick
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 01:47:58 PM »

Hi,
I was interested in learning more about what Scadsobees mentioned, caging the queen to control mites. I understand the principle, I was wondering if there is any literature or specific technique, and what the time table would look like.

Cheers,
Patrick
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 01:56:36 PM »

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/varroatreatment.html

A quick reference, partway down the page.  I'm sure MB has something as well.

-r
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