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Author Topic: Thymol crystals and oxalic acid  (Read 11347 times)
Dr/B
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« on: September 21, 2007, 02:25:10 AM »

Anyone know of a good supplier for thymol and oxalic acid?

How about an oxalic vaporizer?




Thanks Smiley


Dr/B
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 06:03:19 AM »

I don't think you'll find a dealer for oxalic in the US for mite treatment. It has not been approved here for that but you may be able to get it under some other name.Most bee supply companies can probably get you thymol crystals.
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 07:01:53 AM »

Oxalic acid is in a tub labeled "Wood Bleach" in the paint section of the hardware store.
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 07:41:10 AM »

Anyone know of a good supplier for thymol and oxalic acid?

Oxalic acid can be obtained from your local hardware store.
Quote
How about an oxalic vaporizer?


http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm

I have the JB200 and am very pleased with it.


Dr/B
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Cindi
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 09:31:29 AM »

Anyone know of a good supplier for thymol and oxalic acid?

Oxalic acid can be obtained from your local hardware store.
Quote
How about an oxalic vaporizer?


http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm

I have the JB200 and am very pleased with it.


Dr/B

[/quote]

Rob, I have the JB600 currently on order.  It is operated with a propane torch, it takes about 3 minutes of vapourizing, compared to the model that you have that I believe only takes under a minute.  I have used the Oxalic Acid sugar syrup trickle, but I think that it would be far easier to use vapour, much quicker and the hive doesn't have to be disturbed in the cold weather.  Oxalic Acid is applied during the broodless period, we apply it about the first of December in my area.

I was surprised when I saw that you have the device from this company, they are located on Vancouver Island, which is not too far from where I live.

I sure don't get why Canada and the United States have different products (this is speaking of every product under the sun) that are approved or not approved for stuff.  Kind of weird, why not make products acceptable worldwide.  That makes no sense to me.  For example, I see that in the site that you cited above, thymol strips cannot be sold by their company to Canadians, but it can be sold in the U.S.  Go figure that one.  I guess we don't have Thymol registered for use in bee colonies in Canada, just like Oxalic Acid is not registered in the states , but is in Canada.  Hmmm....come on eh, let's get this together  Smiley rolleyes  Have a wonderful day, best of our great life.  Cindi
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 10:00:10 AM »

Cindi,

The JB200 is a rather simple device,  but does a fine job bleaching my woodenware.   It just uses a diesel glow plug as the heating element and an aluminum cup to hold the oxalic acid.   If we have any members who are machinists,  I would be interested in working with them to build a couple more.

As far as registration, I have given up on that as being anything more than financial based a long time ago.

BTW,  I wouldn't mind getting a copy of the JB600 instructions from you when you get them, if you don't mind.

Rob....
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 12:40:49 PM »

Rob, no problem, the copy of the instructions will be at your disposal.  I'll probably scan them and send them to you via e-mail, when they come, or I could just type them out, that would probably be faster for me.   Regulations, smegulations, oh brother, why can't life be simple.  Have a wonderful day, best of our beautiful life.  Cindi

P.S.  I thought the JB200 worked on a 9 volt car battery, sounds like it is even better using the diesel glow plug, that is great and good!!!!!
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2007, 02:46:15 PM »

Cindi:

If you see this, I would love to get a copy of the instructions that came with it as well.

For some reason, the board is not letting me email you.

Quint
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2007, 09:53:32 AM »

Quint.  OK, I see you post, hee, hee.  I think that you are speaking about the forum not allowing you to PM me within the forum.  You could e-mail me personally, but my e-mail is not available for anyone unless I give it to you in an PM, sounds rather strange.

What I am going to do is type the vapourizer pamphlet information and set it here in this thread.  That way, anyone can have access to it.  I will type it as exactly as it is on the brochure.  I will do this sometime today, post it later on today, or early tomorrow morning, whichever comes first.   Smiley Smiley Smiley  Have a wonderful and beautiful day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 12:45:35 PM »

>I will do this sometime today, post it later on today, or early tomorrow morning, whichever comes first.

"later on today" comes first!!!!! Wink
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2007, 05:37:45 PM »

Old Timer, OK, so it is later on today, hee, hee.

Quint.  I have typed the information from the brochure out, it is in a word document.  Thinking about this, I am a little bit leary of putting this information onto the forum.  Just to let you know that.  My worry is that it may be promoting a product for sale and that may be against forum regulation.  I am going to ask one of the Moderators of the forum if this is acceptable action.  Pretty obviously, this information on the Oxalic acid vapourizer won't be on the forum today (maybe not tomorrow either).  Have a wonderful and greatest of days.  Cindi
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2007, 01:31:57 PM »

I think it will be okay to post instructions as It is not for commercial purpose.. Asking questions about a product is not the same as trying to sell it. Even getting rid of extra equipment and what not is okay, we are just trying to keep commercial operations from making this a free place to advertise. Consumers speaking among each other about products is a good thing!!Even a manufacturer answering questions about his own products is okay!!
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 10:35:08 AM »

OK, Quint, I got the word from John (through PM) and Ken in this thread that it is OK to bring on this information that I typed out for you (and any other forum friend that may be interested in reading a very lengthy post), hee, hee.  But you know me, I ramble  Wink Smiley

I treated 9 colonies in under one hour.  The next time it will be a much shorter time period.  I had not used the apparatus before and I had experience to gain here, so I took my time, slowly.

Below is the text word for word from the pamphlet that came with my Oxalic Acid vapourizer, and it killed mites by the hundreds, quickly.  Have the best and most wonderful day, Cindi

OXALIC ACID VAPOURIZER
JB200 Electric Oxalic Acid Vapourizer

Heilyser Technology Ltd.
685 Dalkeith Ave.
Sidney, B.C.
V8L 5G7
Canada
Phone/Fax: 1-250-656-8727
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln

How to use the JB200 Oxalic Acid vapourizer

Preparation:
Preparing Vapourizer and your 12-volt battery
Preparing protective mask, glasses and suitable acid-resistance rubber gloves
Cutting foam material strips for sealing the entrance

Caution:  Oxalic acid is not dangerous if precautions are taken
Vapourized oxalic acid – safety precautions for the apiarist
Pure oxalic acid is an unhealthy, toxic and corrosive substance.  Therefore, special safety precautions for the beekeeper are necessary, as with other products for Varroa control.  With every handling of Oxalic Acid there is the danger that the dust of the acid is breathed in.  A protective mask, gloves and protective glasses should be worn.  The low amount of Oxalic Acid that can eventually escape from the hive through gaps can easily be avoided.  During treatment the beekeeper pays close attention to the wind direction.  Colonies in a bee house – the house must be well ventilated during and after the treatment.*
The amount of Oxalic acid that escapes is, in any event, only a fraction of the amount that surrounds the beekeeper when spraying with Oxalic acid.  Spray treatment with a 3% solution of Oxalic acid is recommended in certain countries.  Therefore when vapourizing with Oxalic acid a special protective mask (FFP 3 S/L) for solid (=S) and liquid (=L) acidic aerosols should be worn.

Start with your evaporation
1.   Make sure the Oxalic tray is attached to the heating element – tighten the screw
2.   Fill the vapourizer with the required amount of Oxalic acid (2 scoops = approximately 2 grams).  USE OXALIC ACID CRYSTALS ONLY, NOT LIQUID ACID
3.   Place the vapourizer inside the hive and seal the hive with foam to prevent leakage of acid vapour during treatment
4.   Connect the vapourizer to your battery.  Positive (+) mounts to the wire and negative (-) to the handle.  After 60+ seconds the Oxalic acid should be vapourized.  Disconnect from battery and remove the vapourizer from your hive immediately.
Do not overheat the vapourizer as this can destroy the tray and the heat element.
5.   The hive should remained locked for at least 10 minutes to enable the vapour to penetrate.
6.   Prior to the next treatment, cool the vapourizer with a wet sponge.  This will prevent early evaporation of the next fill.
7.   After all treatments clean your vapourizer to remove the acid residue

How often can I treat my bees?
You can treat your bees as often as necessary, with the right amount of Oxalic Acid vapour there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.
Colony without brood or swarm – 1 treatment
Colony with brood – up to 4 treatments – 5-7 days apart
Remember – Oxalic acid does not penetrate closed cells
Always monitor mite fall

The JB200 electric is the fastest vapourizer available and was developed for beekeepers who care for large numbers of hives.
With this system, it is possible to connect several vapourizers “in line” to treat more than one colony at the same time.
The JP200 is powered by a 12-volt car battery.
The treatment takes approximately 60 seconds, but depends on the power of each individual battery, therefore, we recommend that you perform an initial test, outside the hive, to establish the evaporation time for your particular battery.
Accurate calculation of the evaporation time will save time and also protect the bees from excessive heat.
The JB200 comes with heat protection for the acid tray to prevent scorching.
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2007, 02:12:10 PM »

Try this out go to Ecologicalbeekeeping.com read the stuff about small cell
the bees will appreciate that.This is good old fashioned chemical free beekeeping
kirko
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2008, 12:15:13 AM »




The JB200 electric is the fastest vapourizer available and was developed for beekeepers who care for large numbers of hives.
With this system, it is possible to connect several vapourizers “in line” to treat more than one colony at the same time.
The JP200 is powered by a 12-volt car battery.
The treatment takes approximately 60 seconds, but depends on the power of each individual battery, therefore, we recommend that you perform an initial test, outside the hive, to establish the evaporation time for your particular battery.
Accurate calculation of the evaporation time will save time and also protect the bees from excessive heat.
The JB200 comes with heat protection for the acid tray to prevent scorching.

[/quote]

Let me ask a crazy question;

I see the method above for crystalized oxalic acid use with the JB200, but..........

Anyone every used liquid oxalic acid in an insect fogger (propane fueled)?

It would seem to me that the aerosolized foggers that you can use to apply mineral oil could be easily used for this same purpose, just using oxalic acid from our local hardware stores.  It'd be much easier to use than the above mentioned JB200 with the liquid form..............

just asking.....

Dr/B rolleyes
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2008, 07:40:24 AM »

>Anyone every used liquid oxalic acid in an insect fogger (propane fueled)?

The subject comes up from time to time.  I don't know of anyone doing it.  If you COULD figure out how to do it, I'd be afraid of the corrosion.  It's hard enough to keep a fogger working using just oil...
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2008, 08:56:57 AM »

Dr/B.  Haven't seen you on here for awhile (unless I am missing something), hi and welcome back.

I think that Michael hit that nail right on the head.  I have,many, many years ago, fogged trees with the fogger using the mineral oil.  It is messy and man oh man, yep, gets rather gummed up.  That was my experience.  I think that it would be a messy thing to put into a colony.

The vapourizing of Oxalic Acid crystals provides very tiny molecules of vapour, really fine and is efficient.  It kills mites by the hundreds, first hand information here, I tried it and was impressed.  I am hoping to to into this season with hygienic queen stock.  I am getting New World Carniolan Queens from California, so I am hoping that I won't have to use drastic measures as this for mite controls anymore.  Time will tell that tale.  Beautiful day in this life we live. Cindi
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2008, 08:20:19 PM »

I didn't see an answer to his question about thymol, so I'll venture that one.

Apiguard is thymol based. Here's a link to the Dadant catalog, but most beekeeping suppliers have it

http://www.dadant.com/Apiguard-Howtouse_003.htm

I've used it successfully in my hives. Smells funny.

Kev
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 10:21:23 AM »

Bumping this up...Just saw this in the ABJ, apparently runs on a battery?

Uses oxalic crystals? 

What do y'all think about it??


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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 10:55:32 AM »

Bumping this up...Just saw this in the ABJ, apparently runs on a battery?

Uses oxalic crystals? 

What do y'all think about it??





Are you referring to the JB200?
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/downloads/beekeeping/JB200ElectricOxalicAcidVaporizer.pdf

It is what I used before going to HSC.  Worked quite well and one Fall treatment was all that I ever needed.
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 01:56:43 AM »

Cindi,
Back in 2007 you stated you had a JB600 on order.  Did you ever recieve it and how did you like it?  I'm looking to purchase one myself but I would like some feedback on the two models JB600 and JB200.

thanks,
Corinne
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 08:18:50 AM »

Corrine.  Interesting that you recall that I was going to order one.  Yes, I ordered the JB200, it was a little more expensive than the JB600, and it runs on a car battery.  I actually purchased a small battery with a handle so that I could carry it around more easily.

I have used this vapourizer last fall and this spring.  It is amazingly simple and fast....I am not kidding you.  I share my vapourizer with two of my bee pals.  One bee pal gal comes and helps me to do my hives then we do hers.  Both of us working it goes even faster.  I have 10 colonies and it probably takes about 3 minutes per colony. 

Each colony has to be prepared, the entrances must be closed off with something, I use foam and then the bowl for the crystals is inserted , the battery hooked up, approximately 60 seconds to vapourize the two caps of crystals, cool the bowl down, fill it and on to the next colony.  Fast, efficient and it drops mites like there was not tomorrow.  I am impressed.  Should you purchase one, I know you will be satisfied. 

The effects of the mite death carries on for about 4 weeks.  I know that because I did sticky board tests for a one month period last fall.  Until I got tired of performing this task.  And their were still mites falling dead after that time period of the last sticky board and mit count.  I know it works, well.  Have a most wonderful and beautiful day, lovin' this great life.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2008, 12:56:24 AM »

Thanks so much Cindi, for you quick response.   Also thanks for the tips.  I think this will be on my next bee list.  When you say you purchased a small battery with a handle was it a car battery or something smaller.

thanks,
Corinne
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2008, 07:19:27 AM »

If you can get a car, tractor, lawnmover, or any other vehicle with a battery within 25 feet of your hives, just make a set of long leads for the vaporizer.  That is what I did.  Then you don't have the added expense of a battery nor do you have to worry about storing it and keeping it charged.

rob...
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2008, 09:21:53 AM »

Thanks Robo


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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2008, 09:29:42 AM »

Corinne, welcomes.  I think Rob has something there, bringing a vehicle close to the hives would  be great, but I am too lazy for that.  I bit that bullet and purchased a small 12 volt car battery.  I think it was $60 or something, but I figured that I would be using it for many years so it would pay for itself with peace of mind that I KNOW my bees have help anytime I need to vapourize.

My wonderful Husband made me some very long leads that I attach to the battery out of wire that he got from a car parts place, 14 guage wire, to be exact, used for car stereos, but other wire can also be used.  I can pretty much leave the battery in one spot or move it slightly, I think the leads are about 15 feet long. 

The thing with vapourizing is:  (others also vapourize with acetic acid (vinegar) with good results I have heard, but I don't know about that, there is talk on our forum of this in other threads) -- it is not like many other applications.

Oxalic acid when it is made into a sugar syrup trickle MUST only be done when there is no brood present in the colony.  I.e., wintertime, because it can kill brood.   Vapourizing can be done any time there is a necessity, it does not kill bees nor brood.  But, I would not do it during the honey flow regardless, only before, in the spring or in the fall.  The vapourizing in the spring should keep the mites in good check until the fall treatment.  There will be mites in the summer I would imagine, but not bad enough to affect them deeply, until their fall treatment.

There are other methods that work well too.  That powdered sugar dusting, but I am too lazy for that, and the regression to small cell.  I have no intention of this either.  That is me.  I hope this has been explained a little deeper and better for you.  Beautiful and most wonderful day, lovin' this life we live, enjoy your day like there was no tomorrow.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2008, 03:37:42 AM »

Thanks so much Cindi, for you quick response.   Also thanks for the tips.  I think this will be on my next bee list.  When you say you purchased a small battery with a handle was it a car battery or something smaller.

You can get riding lawn mower batteries if you absolutely need a portable battery (if you can't get a vehicle close enough like Rob suggested).  They are much smaller and lighter than car batteries and often come with plastic handles so you can carry them easily, and should have all the power you need for this application.  The last time I bought one for my riding mower it was about $30, but that was several years ago, and I think they are much more expensive now.
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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2008, 10:17:10 AM »

Check out the video I did of oxcylic acid treatment last year on you tube.

This was the first treatment:


This was later with a modified apparatus, worked much better:


I made the aparatus myself with stuff from the hardware store. Can't remember what it cost but it wasn't more than $15. I now have 4 hives and it does take a while for the crystals to vaporize using this method. so I will probably make some sort of electric version this year so as to speed thing along.
Alfred
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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2008, 01:10:02 PM »

Alfred, I looked at your videos, great job.  It is wonderful when people can invent things, and this you have done, saved yourself some money too, while you were at it, my hat off to you.  Have that wonderful and great day, Cindi
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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2008, 02:02:34 PM »

Alfred,

Couple of thoughts for you.    The JB200 comes with a spoon to measure out the 2g.   The "spoon" is nothing more than a 1/2" copper pipe nipple with a handle soldered on.



I also found the shorter you make the outlet pipe, the less of the oxalic acid recrystallizes on it.   Since the vapor is hot and rises,  I do it thru the entrance and let the vapor rise up thru the whole hive and not just cool at the top and create a residue on the top of the frames.




One nice thing about the electric vaporizer is that it can be used with 25ft leads which gets you away from the hive and not as much chance of getting exposed to the vapors.  The electric one is also quicker and you can move from one hive to another without having it cool down completely.  It's not an easy task to reload the torch vaporizer when it is hot Undecided
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Cindi
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« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2008, 02:05:47 PM »

This is the same vapourizer I have.  I have the long, long leads too, and can stand a very far distance from the hives when I hook up the battery and the crystals evapourate, it only takes about one minute to fully evapourate the crystals and no fear of breathing in the fumes.  Although I do wear a mask for protection of any vapour that may be around.  Beautiful and most wonderful day, Cindi
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« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2008, 04:40:56 PM »

if you have a SBB could you just vaporize the crystals under the SBB? Where do you get the crystals?
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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2008, 06:28:45 PM »

if you have a SBB could you just vaporize the crystals under the SBB?
The hie needs to be completely sealed for 10-15 minutes after treatment,  so only if you close off the SBB.

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Where do you get the crystals?

Hardware store....

There have been a few discussions of brand names and stores, but I don't recall the details anymore.  Use Search and I'm sure you can find it.
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2008, 05:34:35 PM »

I got mine at Ace Hardware in labeled as Wood Bleach in a little tub.
Alfred
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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2009, 10:25:16 AM »

So, does anyone have the JB600?  The one that uses the torch.  It seems very simple to make, if I had a better picture of it.

Thanks.
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