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Author Topic: Yeah! I thought so.  (Read 6870 times)
reinbeau
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2007, 07:37:22 PM »


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.  

Again there is nothing in that statement about a Christian nation.

The founding fathers may have ideals that seem christian but they did not want a Christian nation. I have shown that several times already.

The United States is not a christian nation.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Yea, just like it isn't English-speaking  rolleyes
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2007, 07:47:17 PM »

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Again there is nothing in that statement about a Christian nation

more to the point; there is nothing in there about seperation of church and state.

Quote
The United States is not a christian nation.


that is a true statemenet....although, the majority of it's inhabitants identify themselves as christians.

Quote
The founding fathers may have ideals that seem christian but they did not want a Christian nation. I have shown that several times already.


you have not and you can not.   their own words and actions betray that argument.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2007, 07:51:31 PM »


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.  


Again there is nothing in that statement about a Christian nation.

The founding fathers may have ideals that seem christian but they did not want a Christian nation. I have shown that several times already.

The United States is not a christian nation.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Yea, just like it isn't English-speaking  rolleyes


That is a different topic. And yes it is not a English speaking nation.
http://www.brendhanhorne.com/coppermine_dir/displayimage.php?album=97&pos=66
That is a historic marker in dutch. In New York.
When you go and look at the old cemetaries in New Orleans they are in French.
Florida was settled by the Spanish. We still have our chinatowns, and other ethnic pockets through out this country where the signs are not in english the employees may not speak it.

There is a wonderful cartoon I like, it explains things well.
http://xkcd.com/84/

This nation is a melting pot. Insisting that everyone who comes here speak english is bigoted and shortsighted.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2007, 10:09:31 PM »

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This nation is a melting pot. Insisting that everyone who comes here speak english is bigoted and shortsighted.

insisting that everyone who come here learns engish well enough to function in an english speaking country, is just common sense.  the south does not belong to the french or the spanish anymore.  california does not belong to mexico.  there are a number of things that can unite a people.  we have chosen to forgo many of those things.  the one important common denominator that we need, to function well, is a common language.  there is nothing wrong with having a country where many languages are spoken.  there is something very wrong with catering to those who wish to stay separate.  if they wish to maintain purity of language and culture, they should go back to their place or origin.

many of the founders were not big fans of immigration.  they thought it would be better to have slow growth from within, than a flood of different cultures.  one reason we were able to have a large influx of immigrants and and make it work, is that people came here because they wanted to be americans.  that included learning english.  in the later 20th century, that changed.  we became PC and tried to have mini-countries within the US.  separate holidays, language, culture, etc.  it does not work.  if you want to see how well it doesn't work, look at france and england.  their sub-cultures live in poverty, they do not get the education, they do not get the jobs, they cause endless problems for law enforcement.  they do not identify with their adopted country, so they become easy recruits into subversive and terrorist organizations. 

one need not become part of the borg collective to become american.  one must develop a sense of national identity, else what is the point of being here?  to collect welfare?  to provide safe houses to terrorist cells?  if you do not want to be american but only want the benefit of the country, you are part of the eventual destruction of the country.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2007, 10:21:20 PM »


This nation is a melting pot. Insisting that everyone who comes here speak english is bigoted and shortsighted.

Sincerely,
Brendhan


Brendhan, I am neither a bigot or shortsighted and don't appreciate being called such.

I would fully support any legislation that declared the USA and English speaking nation, since it already is.  A melting pot means exactly what it says, newcomers should melt into American life, not try to make it another version of their home country. 
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2007, 11:07:27 PM »

OK now it is about to get to the point I started with. We must deny others their freedom because we want it a certain way.

Telling someone they must learn English when they may not want to is forcing them to live your way. If we want to truly call this country free then we must accept somethings we find inconvenient. 
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reinbeau
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« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2007, 07:06:43 AM »

It's not inconvenient, Jerry, it costs me money.  The taxpayers and ratepayers in this country shouldn't have to pay to have translators everywhere (courts, hospitals, etc), nor should they have to pay for second-language education - only to learn English.  It's not racist, it's purely financial.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2007, 07:23:12 AM »

It's not inconvenient, Jerry, it costs me money.

As I said inconvenient

The taxpayers and ratepayers in this country shouldn't have to pay to have translators everywhere (courts, hospitals, etc), nor should they have to pay for second-language education - only to learn English.  It's not racist, it's purely financial.

Since it is so inconvenient, you demand some one.... probably poor..... to spend their money on learning another language. No one said anything about race.

Here in America we strut around with our noses in the air telling everyone "Hey, Look at us. We're the greatest nation on earth. Here every one is free." then in the next breath we want some one to bow down and do things "our" way.

What are all the reasons why you don't learn another language or two?
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reinbeau
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2007, 08:33:24 AM »

Because I don't live in another country and have no need to learn another language (although I have, I took high school french as that is my heritage).  What languages do you speak?

There is nothing wrong with teaching English to students, all students - what is wrong is teaching in their language - immersion is the best way to learn, and children pick up languages quite quickly.  The twisted way they get around to ESL programs, at least up around here, costs everyone far too much money, time and resources.  Nevermind having to print everything up in 14 (fourteen!!) different languages.

If you're going to make money part of the issue, it would be better for them to learn English, that way they have a chance at a better job - but I suppose it is better that they live in their own areas, speak their own language, work in service jobs and get sour and bitter about not being able to better themselves. 
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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2007, 08:55:11 AM »

Because I don't live in another country and have no need to learn another language (although I have, I took high school french as that is my heritage).  What languages do you speak?
Spanish not fluently, Sign Language, 2 years of latin. My wife speaks spanish and some Italian.

Quote
There is nothing wrong with teaching English to students, all students - what is wrong is teaching in their language - immersion is the best way to learn, and children pick up languages quite quickly.  The twisted way they get around to ESL programs, at least up around here, costs everyone far too much money, time and resources.  Nevermind having to print everything up in 14 (fourteen!!) different languages.
What about the adults. If you just moved to Finland, do you think you would know the language right away?

Quote
If you're going to make money part of the issue, it would be better for them to learn English, that way they have a chance at a better job - but I suppose it is better that they live in their own areas, speak their own language, work in service jobs and get sour and bitter about not being able to better themselves. 

This has been proven to be untrue time and time again. Here is why. The people who don't speak english very well do work. They do earn money. And they do need to spend it. They spend it in areas where they encounter least resistance. That is why Miami is so bi lingual. The buisnesses want the money. They would sell with advertisiments in Swahili if there was enough money in it.

The ports bring in products from all over the world. Buisness speaks one language and it isn't english.

It's sad that most people in other countries speak at least two languages, yet the attitude in the country by so many is that everyone should cater to us. That is a pretty sad statement in my book.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2007, 10:07:16 AM »

I only speak English. I drove trucks all over the country and have dealt with people that spoke some other language. Spanish. French. Some oriental language not sure which. German. Cajun. And we some how managed to get the job done.

What has "not living in another country" got to do with anything? I named six languages that are spoken in this country. Want to take a guess at how many more there are? And yes, right now, English is the dominant language, and there are those that will fight and fuss and try to keep it so, because it is the way they want their little world, but I'm willing to bet that sometime in the future there will be more people speaking another language here. Then they will demand everyone learn it.

Oh, and you were making it about money

It's not inconvenient, Jerry, it costs me money. 
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reinbeau
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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2007, 12:31:27 PM »

Yes, I am making it about money, which isn't 'convenient' or 'inconvenient', especially for those of us who are just making it ourselves.  And it's not just my money I'm worried about, I'm also worried about the non-English speakers not being able to reach their full potential in an English speaking country where they can't communicate well enough to get out of their neighborhoods.  I've read of people here in MA who are immigrants and very unhappy with how their children are being taught in their 'own' language.  The parents want them to learn English, because they know it will hold them back in the long run.  But feel-good liberals can't and won't listen to that, they think they know better.  Instead of helping, they're keeping the underclass right where they want them, dependent on them, not getting anywhere - and I guess in your mind that's a good thing.

If I were to move to France, I'd learn French.  Germany, German.  I wouldn't expect them to turn themselves inside out to learn English, and yes, I know, many of them do speak it.  That isn't something I should expect, though.  But I see you think I want it because that's how it is in my little world, which means you've cast me as a small-minded bigot, so again, I get called names and you celebrate diversity.  This conversation is so over....
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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2007, 01:09:14 PM »

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If we want to truly call this country free then we must accept somethings we find inconvenient. 


it is not a free country.  it is a nation of laws and traditions.

understudy, the second language that most learn fluently in other countries is ENGLISH.  i understand that people just coming here do not know the language.  i have worked with a number of immigrant groups and it is hard for older people to learn.  not a problem.  however, when you have children in school, and second generations that do not speak engish...do not even care to learn, you have a problem.  when they demand that they have translators available, and things printed in multiple languages, it's a problem.  if they are voting and can't read english, that's a problem.  if they are getting a drivers license and need the instructions and test in some other language, that's a big problem.

jerrymac, it's not a matter of arrogance.  when i travel to another country, i do not expect them to be able to communicate with me in english.  in a tourist spot they usually can.  outside of that, they can't .  if i moved to a village in france or spain, i'd have to learn the language in order to function.  the language of this country is english.  it makes sense to have bilingual people in airports and at tourist spots.  it makes no sense to have every document translated into 50 languages and every person from every country demanding interpretors at tax payer or member expense for court hearings, hospital visits, etc. 

you want your melting pot.  you can't have it with the tower of babel.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2007, 02:30:04 PM »

There you go again talking about other countries.  rolleyes

If it isn't a free country then by god we should pass legislation to stop calling it a free country. How dare we lure people here under false pretenses.

If people feel they are held back because they can't talk English and they feel they could get further in life by knowing English then for sure I am not going to stop them from learning. We don't need a law for them to do that, just go and do it. I know a few that have come over the border and have learned all on their own to speak English. If I thought I needed to speak Spanish to get further in life I would certainly learn how to do that.

We are only a country of laws because so many people want everything their way. They think they need to help everybody out. They feel they need to protect everybody from everything, even themselves. If people think it is so darned important to teach English to every body, then why don't they go out and do it? Why do we need laws to not only force someone to learn the language, but to force someone to teach it.

I guess I have to go back and read the constitution because I don't remember reading where English was the legal language in this country.
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2007, 04:05:59 PM »

The fact that I knew sign language was skipped over. I am not surprised.
It is not english. Maybe we shouldn't cater to their needs.

Jerrymac mentioned driving his truck and encountering six different languages in his travels. I am sure that number could be even higher.

If you traveled to another country you would probably need at least a year in some cases more to become familar with another language. Translators and documents in other languages make things more convienent not less convienent. Why would someone want to adapt to a new place if nothing is done to help them adapt. I am sure Miami would rather have the tax money from the local businesses. Buisnesses run by people whose English may be non existant. People who have families and contribute well to society except for the fact they may not speak english. These people have reach and achieved the american dream, that seems to me like they have reached their potential.  There are plenty of english speaking native born americans who don't make any effort to reach their potential.

People who have become citzens and vote that is about as American as it gets. So what if they want a non english ballot. At least they vote. I will take that over an native born english speaking person who doesn't bother.

I have a person I worked with who had been in this country for twenty years. He was born in S. Africa. Ten years ago he got his american citizenship. His wife got hers also at the same time. I remember a bunch of people mocking him for his accent telling him he should go home. He explained he was home he was American. The people saying no he wasn't because he wasn't born here. His getting his citizenship didn't matter. This is the kind of crap that ignorant Americans say. It is wrong and should not be tolerated.

Forcing someone to learn english is wrong and should not be tolerated.
Forcing someone to accept God is the same thing. Abhorant.


Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2007, 04:15:09 PM »

so maybe the supreme court should stop using latin phrases in describing the law? or scientists for that matter?
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2007, 04:28:52 PM »

The fact that I knew sign language was skipped over. I am not surprised.
It is not english. Maybe we shouldn't cater to their needs.

Is sign language universal? Not an English version or a Spanish version ect ect
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2007, 05:21:25 PM »

It has regional dialects even in this country. There is also ASL (American Sign Language) which is an effort to make sign language seem more gramatical. But no sign language is not universal.

Here is a list from Gallaudet.
http://edf3.gallaudet.edu/diversity/BGG/Sign%20Language%20Around%20the%20World/Index.html


Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2007, 05:29:04 PM »

god and english equated.  that's kind of screwed up thinking.

you can not learn to hear any more than you can learn to see if you are blind.  you can learn english.

understudy, i am guessing that i am old enough to be your....mother  smiley.  when i grew up in s ca, we did not have ESL, or multiple language drivers tests, or multiple language ballots.  guess what?  people learned to speak english.  california has found the hard way that teaching in spanish actually slows down the learning of english.  who'd a thunk it?  

having an accent when speaking english is not the same as not learning the language.  you in the south have an awful accent.  i can hardly understand it sometimes.  even so, i recognize it as english (most of the time).  

in order to become a citizen, you are supposed to demonstrate a working knowledge of the english language.  if you are voting, you are supposed to be a citizen.  you also have been in this country for a bit if you have become a citizen.  if you need a translated ballot, it might bring up the question of valid citizenship.  one of the reasons some areas of the country do not want id for voting is that they know that a lot of illegals vote.  agenda anyone?

jerrymac has it right.  we do not need a law declaring english the official language.  we need to do away with all of the services that make it convenient for people not to learn.  my family learned.  it's not always perfect.  sometimes it's quite hilarious.  by my generation we had mastered it....for the most part  smiley  why should my taxes be used to enable laziness?

who ever tried to shove god down your throat.  have you been forced to worship?  have you been forced to declare a belief?  have you been shunned because you do not believe?  define "forced".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2007, 05:38:32 PM »

Just imagine how wonderful a world it would be if everyone showed up at a gathering everyone spoke a different language and no one knew what the other was talking about.
  And to the original point,government should not regulate religion which they are trying to do.
The elite would rather you turn to them for help instead of having faith in your God and family.
I really beleive many in Washington would like to legislate religion out of your life!
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