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Author Topic: Support wire in foundation.  (Read 8156 times)
Anonymous
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« on: July 23, 2004, 09:15:48 PM »

A multi part question Here
How many on this forum use wire horzontaly to support foundation in the frames for deeps where brood is raised?
How many wires do you use, there are room for 4?
What kind of tenstion do you put on the wire and How do you test it?
Dose any body use support pins at all?

 Cheesy Al
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Anonymous
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2004, 09:50:36 PM »

Trail Twister,

I don't use horizontal support wire on my foudation for deeps. I use support pins only and so far I haven't had any trouble with the foundation twisting or breaking on me. I use four pins up either side in place of wire.
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2004, 09:00:02 AM »

I've got 3 hives now, and they all have mostly durgilt foundation in them.  I don't like it at all.  I'm hoping to scrounge up my old electric embedder and cull as many as I can, replacing them with wired wax.  I've never tried the permacomb or whatever the embossed foundation is, but I have alot more confidence in the old wired style foundation.  My old frames had four horizontal wires.
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Robo
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2004, 01:03:38 PM »

I use 4 wires and tension them so that the side bars just start to bow in.
I personally don't like the support pins because if the frames of foundation aren't drawn out before storing them,  the center tends to buckle (no support). Or if the bees ain't in the mood to drawn when you install it, they tend to chew around the pins.
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Lechwe
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2004, 07:51:33 AM »

I use support wire in all of mine. I usually use the middle two holes for two strands. Like Robo, I get them pretty tight and then use a homemade elctric embeder to get them melted in. Works great.
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Lesli
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2004, 07:56:20 AM »

George Imrie says that Duragilt is "junk." Given his decades of beekeeping, I'm inclined to believe him. His arguement is that the plastic core has no cell impressions, so if the way is damaged or removed, the bees will ignore that spot forevermore.

His preference is for the plastic embossed, specifically, plasticell. He preferes wooden frames to plastic, saying they break less often.

Now, having conveyed his opinion, what's mine? Dunno. The nucs I got this year had every type of foundation in them. Wired may be ok, but at least one of the wires on those frames is "sprung, and other frames have large gaps. If the bees like coated platic, that's what they'll get.
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2004, 09:59:31 AM »

I would agree about the duragilt or glit or whatever it is.  They chew the wax off parts of it, never to build in that area again.  Or worse, they chew the wax off and build cross comb.  A big mess.  I've even had them chew the wax off the duraglit, then build comb with a beespace between the plastic and the comb.  Very ugly, but I did enjoy the new wax with the honey in it when I ate it.  

Sometimes, the old ways work the best.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2004, 09:06:58 AM »

Thank you all for the responce to this question. My reasoning for asking is I have wired up I think closed to 50 frames now with 4 wires. Even though I have modified my wire spooler with handles like a fishing reel to help tention the wire I still have an awful time with the wire breaking because of to much tention in the top wire while trying to get the slack out of the bottom ones. I have come to despise the idea of putting four wires in a frame. For my own use I and going to use two wires in the center and support pins in the very top and bottom holes.   On my first beginning frames I only used support pins as recommend by the frame supplyer with good luck. I sure caught flack from club members over that pratice though so now do wire.

One more question::: Do you place all four wires on the same side or sandwich the foundation?

 Cheesy Al
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Robo
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2004, 01:15:53 PM »

I weave the foundation thru the wires.  #1 & #3 wires on one side and #2 & #4 wires on the other side.
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2004, 02:03:39 PM »

A handy guy like you could easily make a jig to wire your frames in, and add an electric embedder right on the jig.  You just use something like a doorbell button.  Lay the foundation over the wire, hit the button, the wire heats up, and melts right in against the vertical crimp wire already in the foundation.  Very slick to pull the wire, lay the foundation in, embed it, and done.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2004, 09:06:25 AM »

I gather from your reply Robo that you install the foundation after wiring the frames smiley ?

I do use a form board for embedding the wire into the foundation with a spur wheel.
Give me a bit more information on the door beel Idea. Such as power source? Would I need a transformer?
Thanks again for the information.
 Cheesy Al
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golf
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2004, 10:02:33 AM »

I had downloaded the plans for one, cause I can't find my old one,but so far, am unable to find them.  But yes, there was a transformer, an insulating block, and a couple contact points on the wiring jig.  One side was wired through the doorbell button so the circuit was complete by slipping the frame against the contacts, and the bottom bar was pressed down onto the button, completing the ciruit and heating the wire.  I'll keep looking for the plans.
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Robo
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2004, 10:41:53 AM »

Quote from: trail twister
I gather from your reply Robo that you install the foundation after wiring the frames smiley ?


Yes, I wire the frames before installing the foundation.

Here is my frame wiring jig.


Click image for larger view

 I too was having trouble getting the wire tight without breaking it.  So I installed a little block on the jig that allows me to wedge the bottom bar down, and pre-bow the sides of the frame. I then wire the frame up snug, and when I remove the frame, the wire becomes nice and tight.

Once I get all the frames wired up, then I install the foundation by weaving it through the wires (wires on alternating sides of the foundation)

I have an old electric embedder that I believe came from Kelly.  It is just a piece of wood with brass spring tabs at the ends that just fit inside the frame rails. There is a switch in the middle that completes the circuit.  There are also metal tabs along the edge that push the hot wire into the wax.


Click image for larger view

The embedder is fed by a 12V transformer.


Click image for larger view

With this I can only do one wire at a time, but it is relatively quick.  I have seen jigs that do all the wires at once, but I have my doubts how well they work.  First of all, they do not have any means of pushing the hot wire in, so unless the natural center of the foundation and the natural center of all 4 wires are in the same plane, you won't get good results.  Secondly,  It is very easy to overheat the wire and melt right thru the foundation. Like cutting thru it with a knife.  I prefer the control of doing one wire at a time.
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2004, 01:28:11 PM »

It took a try or two to not to overheat the wire, but the vertical wire in the foundation worked pretty well as a guide for depth, and kept me from cutting all the way through the foundation.  Mine also had a lightbulb receptacle that lit up when the circuit was complete and was a simple timing matter.  I would think that you could ask someone too, about the voltage of the transformer for stainless wire or whatever, and keep from burning the wire itself up.  That just a guess though.  Seems every system has a glitch or two and just becomes what you are comfortable with.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2004, 09:06:29 AM »

Thanks for the information everyone. I'm sure it is going to make my wireing of frames that require 4 wires better. No I'm not going to 4 wires for my self just when I'm replacing frames after being given a swarm by some one that likes the 4 wires.
I'll also be expermiting with the embeder too. I see it now 2 frames for me one for him cheesy  cheesy .
 Cheesy Al
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Martha Beemom
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2004, 09:57:15 AM »

Well, I don't do what any of you do for wiring.

I use small cell wax foundation and make a big "X" of wire. One diagonal piece on each side. I do embed it too.

Then I also put foundationless frames between the small cell foundation cells with the wire "x". Then I get beautiful comb and the bees attach to the wire. The wire really supports the comb until it reaches the sides.

Martha in KC
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2004, 11:24:03 PM »

For 3 yrs. now I have used the pierco deeps for brood frames. Now some of you say they won't last. How many years can I expect from them before breaking? So far I have had zero problems with either Italian or wild bees from swarms,should I gradually shift to wax foundation before any major problems. Yes, all the beekeepers in the know around my area advise against duragilt because of many problems associated with this product. Still having a ball with beekeeping.
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Robo
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2004, 08:12:02 AM »

I have had pierco deep frames for 5-6 years now and have not had any problem with breaking.   I don't recall hearing of too many people that have either.  I think most folks dislike them for other reason.  I find they flex too much when full, and their narrow top bar makes them difficult to hold with my hive tool.

Don't put them in a solar melter to clean them though, they will curl up like a crumpled piece of newspaper.

I would not worry about culling them out if you are happy with them, I don't believe that they are all of a sudden going to start breaking.
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2004, 03:02:43 PM »

I read on another site that someone is using fishing line sandwiching the foundatation between and slightly bowing the frames then nailing it.  Going to give it a try.  They sugessted using 10lb test.  Don' see why it won't work should be alot less labor intense, quicker and cheaper.  What cha' think?HuhHuh?
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