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Author Topic: Sugar syrup digestion  (Read 4222 times)
CBEE
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 08:09:50 AM »

Thanks for the info. I have been feeding 1:1 just trying to get them to fill out the second deep and make it through the winter. I had not thought about them not being able to reduce it enough to cap off as the weather changes.
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Cindi
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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 10:09:43 AM »

Bees reduce moisture that it will not ferment in store. Yeasts are not able to use condensed sugar. Water reducing needs high temp in the hive and so needs wax work too.  In winter cluster hive temp is 10C less.
When bees uncap honey/sugar during winter, it takes water from air and sugar dilutes. So bees get drinking water in their food.
If sugar is too moist to uncap in autumn, it will be fermented and it swells from combs. Even big hive will die during winter when it try to lick fermented sugar on combs.
You will se in winter how uncapped sugar swells from edge frames. It goes to bottom, and that is why you need put hives a little bit forward slanting.

I think these are some pretty good words of wisdom.  Our rule of thumb with sugar syrup feeding in my area is that the bees do not get any more feeding after about October 5.  It is bad to feed them any s.s. after this because they do not have time to processs it for wintertime food.  If there is sugar syrup left in the hive at this date, it is removed, plain and simple.

We are advised too in wintertime to tilt the hives slightly forward.  We were taught this in our classes.  It is good hygiene and keeps any moisture from accumulating on the solid bottomboard, if one is using that board in their hives.  Finsky has corroborated what we have been taught here in my area.  Have a wonderful day, we all need to listen and learn.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
rdy-b
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« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2007, 12:04:21 AM »

so tell me it sounds like your area would be a great candidate for feeding fondant do many keepers fed fondant to help with the moister problem in your area after oct. 5 seams like a viable option  RDY-B   
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Cindi
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« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2007, 09:26:09 AM »

RDY-B.  In all actuality, fondant is used alot, but it is only meant for "emergency" feeding, there in case the bees runs out of their honey or sugar syrup stores.  It is the most important fact to ensure that the bees have stored enough honey or sugar syrup to last their wintertime.  Robo has a great recipe for candy for the bees, it is in the hive "just in case".  Have a wonderful day, best of our wonderful life.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Michael Bush
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2007, 10:16:44 AM »

As Cindi says, I see fondant as "emergency" food.  I don't see syrup and candy as interchangeable.  They serve two different purposes.  Candy seldom gets converted to stores and stores are best for overwintering.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
rdy-b
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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2007, 08:00:59 PM »

Just thought i would ask seems to me the hole thing started and is very much practiced in Canada and similar climates. I have no need to practice that method but always thought it has merit. lots of talk about feeding going on i hope people feed pollen patties as well the new word in my bee yard is VITELLOGENIN ben around for years just  didnt     know the science of it  listen learn and read great day  Wink Smiley RDY-B
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bluegrass
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« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2007, 08:28:40 AM »

I love it when the feeding threads come up..... Now to make your brains hurt even more.....2:1 is max saturation so scientifically speaking syrup cannot be reduced any more than that without heating (boiling). So how do the bees do it? has anybody checked the moisture content of capped syrup going into winter?
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Sugarbush Bees
Cindi
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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2007, 10:13:16 AM »

RDY-B.  Wow, OK, Vitellogenin.  Listening, learning, this is what good beekeepers should strive for.  I googled the term vitellogenin and read about it.  I will be studying more.  I am surprised that this terminology has never come up in all the studies I have done on beekeeping.  Just to make things a little more interesting, I copied from the Wikopedia site the diddy on vitellogenin, for those (like how I am usually) are a little lazy and say, ya, I'll look at this later.  It is important for us as beekeepers to be informed, study and learn as much as we can.  It is good for us as human beings, and those as the girls that we all want to keep healthy and allow us to be involved in their beautiful little lives.  We are privileged to have these bees, we should take good care of them.  They are ours, only as long as we help them to live happy and healthy lives.  The excerpt follows in italic quotes:

"Vitellogenin and honey bees
Honey bees deposit vitellogenin in fat bodies in their abdomen and heads. The fat bodies apparently acts as a food storage reservoir. The glycolipoprotein vitellogenin has additional functionality as it acts as an antioxidant to prolong Queen bee and forager lifespan as well as a hormone that affects future foraging behavior. [1] The health of a honey bee colony is dependent upon the vitellogenin reserves of the nurse bees - the foragers have low levels of vitellogenin. As expendable laborers the foragers are fed just enough protein to keep them working their risky task of collecting nectar and pollen. Vitellogenin is important during the nest stage and thus for worker division of labor. A nurse bees vitellogenin titer that developed in the first four days after emergence, affects its subsequent age to begin foraging and whether it preferentially forages for nectar or pollen. If young workers are short on food their first days of life, they tend to begin foraging early and preferentially for nectar. If they are moderately fed, they forage at normal age preferentially for nectar. If they are abundantly fed, immediately after emergence, their vitellogenin titer is high and they begin foraging later in life, preferentially collecting pollen, which is the only available protein source for honey bees.

Vitellogenin and juvenile hormone feedback loop
Vitellogenin is part of a regulatory feedback loop that enables vitellogenin and juvenile hormone to mutually suppress each other. Vitellogenin and juvenile hormone work antagonistically in the honey bee to regulate their development and behavior. Suppression of one leads to high titers of the other. [2] It is likely that the balance between vitellogenin and juvenile hormone levels is also involved in swarming behavior. [3] Juvenile hormone levels drop pre-swarming and it is expected that vitellogenin levels would therefore rise. Swarming bees would want to pack along as much vitellogenin as possible to extend their lifespan and to be able to quickly build a new nest.
"

My suggestion to our forum friends would be to go a little deeper into the understanding of the biology of the honeybee and find out more about this glycolipoprotein vitellogenin, I know I will be -- and right RDY-B, listening, learning.  Have a wonderful day, beautiful life.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Michael Bush
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2007, 11:19:52 AM »

>2:1 is max saturation so scientifically speaking syrup cannot be reduced any more than that without heating (boiling). So how do the bees do it? has anybody checked the moisture content of capped syrup going into winter?

I think it's actually closer to 1:2 as the maximum saturation.  2:1 (sugar:water) is supersaturated as is honey (more like 4:1).  The way supersaturation works is you either have to gradually reduce the water content by evaporation AFTER the sugar is dissolved or you have to heat the water to get it to take more sugar.  The bees use the evaporation method.  They also invert some of the sugar with enzymes which casues it to crystallize less.  But eventually it crystallizes anyway, as all supersaturated solutions do.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
reinbeau
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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2007, 07:22:38 AM »

American Bee Journal has been running articles by Randy Oliver on the importance of Vitellogenin and fat bees.  Interesting reading, but I can't find a link to anything to direct anyone too.  You'll have to find the August and September issues to read about it.
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Cindi
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2007, 09:48:37 AM »

Ann, we should look deeper and try to find a link, I will try tomorrow morning, I think the American Bee Journal would be difficult for some to get hold of.  Some time ago, before I got my new laptop, I downloaded a PDF file of a book called "Fat Bees Skinny Bees."  I can't find it on my hard drive  huh  Must have been deleted somewhere.  But I betcha that this book talks about Vitellogenin.  Wonder if the American Bee Journal articles can be obtained through the internet somehow?  BEst of this beautiful day, greatest of our life.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Dick Allen
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« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2007, 01:00:55 PM »

Quote
a book called "Fat Bees Skinny Bees."


Here’s a summary of the “Fat Bees Skinny Bees”

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054sum.html

and here’s the entire version in PDF:

www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf
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Cindi
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« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2007, 12:32:56 AM »

Dick, beauty, thanks for bringing this to the forefront.  Have a beautiful and wonderful day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
rdy-b
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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2007, 09:10:52 PM »

thumbs up  Wink RDY-B
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