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Author Topic: Sugar syrup digestion  (Read 4216 times)
KONASDAD
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« on: September 07, 2007, 07:42:35 PM »

OK- the mantra is... 2 water to one sugar  spring time. 1 to 1 fall because they will have a more difficult time disposing excess waste material in winter  time. Soooo.... can i presume they dont "reduce" sugar water like they do w/ nectar to 17%. Do they store sugar water exactly as given to them, or do they reduce the water conten until its the same as honey's water content? 

I dont understand why the bees wouldn't reduce the water conten for sugar water just like necar, and as such it should not theoretically make a differance what ratio we feed the bees, they will reduce it to whatever their needs are and store it if needed. Thereby having no additional impact on them in winter. I am obviously missing some factual information...thoughts
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rdy-b
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 08:05:15 PM »

I mix my ratios sugar to water not water to sugar any thing they cap will be evaporated down to around 18% or so depending on environmental factors  Smiley  RDY-B
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rdy-b
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 08:16:37 PM »

the concern is that to much moisture in the colony will cause condensation from cluster heat moisture leads to many kinds of problems such as nosemea and desintary bees must remain dry to survive ventilation-is key factor but you must also retain heat  RDY-B
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 08:32:30 PM »

>OK- the mantra is... 2 water to one sugar  spring time. 1 to 1 fall because they will have a more difficult time disposing excess waste material in winter  time.

No.  Actually in the spring 1:1 is recommended.  In the fall 2:1 is recommended.  that's 2 parts sugar to 1 part water.  I don't know anyone who is recommending 1:2 but that would be closer to nectar, and also won't keep very well.
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Michael Bush
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2007, 10:34:55 PM »

Me, always out of step, feed my bees a little different mixture: I call it 3:6 which is 3 5 lb bags of sugar to 6 quarts of water.  Makes about 2 1/2 gallons of syrup.  It's heavier than 1:1 and lighter that 2:1.  A 1:1 would be 1 lb sugar to 1 pint of water (A pint's a pound the world around) and 2:1 would be 2 lbs sugar to 1 pint of water.  What I'm mixing is actually 5 lbs sugar to 2 quarts of water or if you prefer: 5 lbs of sugar to 4 lbs of water. I've found that The bees seem to take it much faster than they do either of the other 2 mixes.  If I feed them 2:1 they don't want to build comb where they will with the mix I'm feeding. 

My summer has been so dearth of nectar that I'm still forcing them to draw comb in order to have enough stores for winter.
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2007, 12:08:32 AM »

I feed 1-1 in spring , in winter I feed 2-1,

a 5 pound bag of sugar is roughly 10 cups of sugar( might be a touch extra), so in winter I will have 5 cups water to a 5 pound bag of sugar( which equals 10 cups sugar), thats how I alway figure my mixture...... hope it helps
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2007, 12:18:49 AM »

I just pour 5 lbs of sugar into a clean 1 gallon milk jug and top off with hot water.  It's just a little heavier than a 1:1 mix and is easy to handle and mix.  I just screw on the lid shake throughly and take it out and set it behind the hives to refill the feeding jars as necessary.
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2007, 09:40:03 AM »

My question is why does it matter what ratio we feed if they reduce it before capping? If it is capped it is all 17% regardless of what ratio it began as.
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2007, 09:52:49 AM »

My question is why does it matter what ratio we feed if they reduce it before capping? If it is capped it is all 17% regardless of what ratio it began as.

yea they always reduce water content so it really doen't matter what ratio they are fed.

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mat
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2007, 10:33:24 AM »

It is not always 17%, but below 20% of water. It is much less work to evaporate water from 2:1 syrup, especialy that the outside temps are lower in fall.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2007, 09:38:58 PM »

>My question is why does it matter what ratio we feed if they reduce it before capping? If it is capped it is all 17% regardless of what ratio it began as.

It requires energy and time to reduce nectar (or watery syrup) down to 4:1 (approximately what honey is).  From 1: 1 takes much more time than from 2:1 and much more energy.

Also if they go into winter with a lot of watery syrup in the combs, because they didn't get enough time, this will not keep or work well compared to capped honey.
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Michael Bush
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rdy-b
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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2007, 12:50:44 AM »

the thiner the syrup the more water or moisture in the hive syrup in- a -in hive feeder or a hive top feeder  will form condensation from the heat of the colony water can start to drip down causing any kind of problem such as fermenting honey to bacteria to damp bees that can freeze up in the sever cold yes they work harder to get it to capping stage but why make them work harder and why add more moisture than is required to feed in winter conditions.in the spring when you want to stimulate instead of store resources moisture is not a big problem for the bees they are flying and air is being circulated these are some of my thoughts on the subject i hope they make sense to you    RDY-B
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Cindi
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2007, 01:24:02 AM »

Konasdad.  Michael said it right to the point.  If the bees have less moisture to evaporate to make the sugar syrup more compatible to their needs, so much the better.  1:1 in the spring mimics nectar flow, spring building up time. In the fall, they want to be able to store their stores as quickly as possible, to a state that they can use over wintertime.  hence -- 2:1.  Lots of food for thoughts.  Have this wonderful day, love our life we're livin'.  Cindi
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2007, 10:27:21 AM »

I understand it takes time and energy to reduce the sugar water, but when february and march come and they uncap the stores, why does it create dysentry?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2007, 03:52:22 PM »

it breeds in the moisture you have created by adding thin sryup probably end up with some mold also good luck these roads have been traveled by many others and is not something that needs to be reinvented  RDY-B
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Cindi
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 12:21:40 AM »

Konasdad.  I think that your queery needs some elaboration.  It is not the uncapping of unprocessed food that causes the dynsentry, I don't think that the bees will cap any sugar syrup that has not been reduced to the moisture content of their honey, which is around the 18% level.  I could be wrong, but I hear something wrong with what you are understanding.  Recount your question, make it more clear what your need of understanding is.

If the bees have food that is not of a certain moisture content, i.e., the moisture content of honey, then they are ingesting something that their bodies have to work further for them to use it as a viable long term food, i.e., wintertime.

Your question needs answers, no doubt about that. I await comments from our friends on the forum too that can provide good input, something that is easily understood.  Have a wonderful day, await input, valuable answers.  Cindi
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 07:12:12 AM »

>I understand it takes time and energy to reduce the sugar water, but when february and march come and they uncap the stores, why does it create dysentry?

IMO it doesn't.  The problems are the high humidity and condensation in the hive and the syrup spoiling.  If it spoils it may contribute to dysentery or it may not, but it takes a lot of energy and time to dry the syrup and if that's not done before the cold sets in they will be in a much more humid environment during the winter.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 08:17:09 AM »

So what then would be the minimum consistant day time temps to stop feeding 1 to 1 and go to something heavier due to the difficulty evaproating the syrup ?
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Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2007, 09:00:28 AM »

.
Bees reduce moisture that it will not ferment in store. Yeasts are not able to use condensed sugar. Water reducing needs high temp in the hive and so needs wax work too.  In winter cluster hive temp is 10C less.

When bees uncap honey/sugar during winter, it takes water from air and sugar dilutes. So bees get drinking water in their food.

If sugar is too moist to uncap in autumn, it will be fermented and it swells from combs. Even big hive will die during winter when it try to lick fermented sugar on combs.

You will se in winter how uncapped sugar swells from edge frames. It goes to bottom, and that is why you need put hives a little bit forward slanting.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2007, 07:55:43 PM »

>So what then would be the minimum consistant day time temps to stop feeding 1 to 1

I don't see it as temps.  If you wait until it's cold to start feeding 2:1 it may be too late for them to get it dried.
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Michael Bush
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