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Author Topic: We have your President!  (Read 5830 times)
asprince
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« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2007, 05:16:09 PM »

Well said kathy. Please allow me to input a few additional comments.

Sadam had every chance to avoid war2. He played games with the UN inspectors. If he had cooperated and allowed them to do their jobs as outlined in the surrender agreement for war1, we would probably be fighting somewhere else. If he had nothing to hide, then why did he do such an excellent job of convincing the world that he did have something to hide?

Steve
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mick
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2007, 03:50:07 AM »

Barney you should get your butt back downunder and back to WA and cash in on one of those mine jobs and get yourself some of that 150k a year for driving a truck!

This war on terror has really become a mess. The US doenst want to leave Iraq as as soon as they do, iran will invade and the whole mess starts over again, only this time even more complex and political.

I had been telling everyone for well over 2 years that Osama was hiding out on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border, and now that its basicaly confirmed there has been no real effort to go in there to find him. It sucks and Im sure it is to do with Pakistan being a Nuclear power.

IMO the US should resurrect the "Fortress America" attitude and wean itself of oil, and let the middle east rot in hell. Its worried about the destruction of Israel, but we know what they are capeable of when provoked. They could wipe out most of their arab neighbours with just a little help that flies off a carrier or two. Its the mess afterwards that stops this happening.


The US would rather have the devil it knows than the chaos that would ensue after such an event, and thats a realistic attitude to have.

For the $$$ that has been spent so far, the US could have eneded its dependence on oil, or even paid for the entire Education Budget for ..................12000 years. Its a fact according to the press that is.

Its now all about fear and consumption as it always ends up. The objective has been lost and changed so many times, its just another Vietnam quagmire.

However we must protest the war, not the warrior.
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kathyp
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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2007, 02:02:24 PM »

oh mick   smiley

i don't have a problem with "fortress america", as you put it...however, it was that very attitude that kept us out of ww2 until it was almost to late.  imagine the different world we would have if germany and japan had been successful with their plans. 

we could probably do a better job of weaning ourselves off foreign oil if the libs would let us drill our own.  they won't, so until there is a replacement for oil...and not corn for gods sake, we must import.  a good bit of our imports come from our neighbors.  of those, the only safe country from which we import oil, is canada.  others like venezuela and even mexico, are unstable trade partners.

the best thing the US could do for education is get out of the business.  state funded education sucks.  free crap is still crap.

you can not support the warrior and not support the mission.  it just does not work that way.  if you do not support the mission, you have betrayed the warrior.  the jihadists have proved that they will fight us where we are.  we can come home.  they will come here.  lots of libs would like to make it about israel.  it is not.  the stated mission of radical islalm is to kill zionists, polytheists (christians), and heretics (moderate muslims).  we have a choice.  convert or die. 

we must take blame for letting this fester for so many years.  we should have met this threat much sooner.  now there are millions of people with no goal other than to die gloriously in the act of killing as many of us as they can.  we can stay home.  do you think it will make a difference?

i am reading Paul L. Williams latest book The Day of Islam.  this is the 3rd book i have read with the same info, using different sources.  it documents the acquisition of WMD by radical islamists.  given the fact that they have a fatwa giving them permission to kill us any way they can, and have had access to nuclear material and experts....money being no object....., it seems to me that we ought to be spending our time understanding the threat, not debating the desirability of killing as many of these wingnuts as possible.



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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2007, 07:36:26 PM »

Hi  Mick    i'd be downunder in a heart beet if i could , and the mine job thats wright up my alley as i'am a heavy equipment operator by trade , i checked into the mine jobs when i was there before and then they were paying $100,000  3weeks on 1 week off  and would fly you from the mine back to perth , my bank account is empty now  i was in a very bad car accident about 4 years ago my insurance company paid out $150,000  counting lost wages and doctors and  hospital and when i found out that i needed an operation on my neck well  my claim expired the next month and not much money left on my insurance claim account so i have not had the much needed operation yet  on my neck to repair the  4 damaged discs ,  and the lady who hit me had no insurance and the state of oregon has a very messed up state welfare system the males that work pay taxess to the state  of oregon for this  welfare system but guess what its only for women and children to use for medical or other wise , i could recive food stamps for food from welfare but i would only get  $40.00  @ month and not worth the hassel and trouble ,its sad that you pay into the system and the dam state treats you like trash,  i've been thinking of leaving the states when i'am done with the mess i'am in now and australia is one place i would love to come back to and live there , i really enjoyed it there maybe some day  i agree with you 100 trillion % with  evey thing you have said Mick   have a great day my friend !    Barney
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kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2007, 08:06:14 PM »

barney, try MA.  i hear that's a good welfare state. 

why don't you qualify for our lovely state health care?  i thought it was designed to cover people like you? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2007, 09:16:31 PM »

barney, try MA.  i hear that's a good welfare state. 
How painfully true.... rolleyes
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kathyp
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« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2007, 10:52:04 PM »

sorry reinbeau, just trying to be helpful.  was having a hard time thinking of a state more likely to share,than the socialist republic of oregon   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2007, 12:34:22 AM »

KATHYP   I'AM NOT A WOMAN  OR A CHILD SO I CAN NOT RECIVE WELFARE MEDICAL HELP FROM THE STATE OF OREGON  EVEN THOUGH I HAVE PAID INTO THE SYSTEM BY PAYING STATE TAXES  FOR THE LAST 28 YEARS , IT THINGS LIKE THIS THAT PISS PEOPLE OFF ABOUT LIVING IN AMERICA WE PAY TAXES FOR DIFFERENT THINGS  AND WHEN YOU  REALLY NEED SOME THING WELL THE GOVERMENT HAS  DONE AWAY WITH IT  FOR THE MALES THAT IS ,  OUR MESSED UP GOVERMENT  WASTE ,WASTE  IF I MOVE ANY WHERE IT WILL BE  AWAY FROM  THE USA  TO AUSTRALIA  OR CANADA  OR RUSSIA I LOVE ALL OF THESE COUNTRYS AND THEY LOVE ME !
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Barney
mick
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2007, 04:03:54 AM »

Jesuswept, what a useless system. I have pm you some details, get youre butt back downunder, someone like you they would probably pay for the flight and Im not joking.

Oh and just in case, you have never been badly injured, your 100% tip top now aintcha  Wink
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kathyp
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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2007, 10:50:51 AM »

perhaps your anger should be directed at a system that takes your money in the form of taxes and gives it away to anyone.  or at yourself for not considering the future, or expecting that if something happened, someone else would take care of you.

barnyg, i don't know you.  however, i am old enough to be intimately acquainted with the disasters that life can throw at a person.  when these disasters come, there are only two reaction that one can have.  you can sit around and be angry and wonder why someone doesn't do something to help;  or you can get up and do something for yourself.  it is my experience that if you wait for someone else to help you, help will be a long time in coming.

mick, if he can't work here....you think your country wants to import and support him??

well barnyg, if there is anything i can do to facilitate your exit, please let me know.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2007, 08:05:13 PM »

As for the WMD argument, it is not accurate to say that we found nothing.  It is accurate to say that we did not find what we expected to find.  It is also a fact that tons of WMD material identified by the UN are missing.  There are many people having studied the available material, I among them, who believe that during our dink with the UN before going into Iraq, the material was moved.  There is hard evidence of this, and testimony of same.  Given the fact that the UN identified, but did not secure all of this material, it does kind of beg the question ‘where is the stuff?’.

Kathy,let me start by saying I'm neither a Democrat or Liberal. Colin Powell was on "Meet the Press" last month and he claimed there were no WMD in Iraq and our inspectors could have proved whether or not there was any ever there. He wasn't talking about ALL of Iraq but mostly of the places he had pictures of when he went in front of the UN before the invasion. He also mentioned "Burn Orders" which were never shown to him or carried out before he gave his presentation. Mr. Powell was a hand picked member of the Bush administration and not a member of the liberal mainstream media. I would say he was credible.  I would think you'd find his interview very interesting because he DID say we were doing some good in Iraq. His admitting there wasn't any USABLE WMD in the country was the first admission {that I know of} of error from the Bush administration. I'm sure there's a way to get a transcript of the interview on-line for free or next to it. Please remember some of us who are unhappy with Bush's performance regarding Iraq have alot to be less than thrilled with. The Iraq Parliament has been on vacation angry for the past month. When they are in session only half of them show up. huh The security or Police force has taken way too long to be trained or take responsibility for the their part in this conflict . We've heard the excuses and Bush asking for more time to complete the mission but have yet to see this administration put pressure on the Iraq government to step up to the plate. There's a reason why not only Democrats want political progress in Iraq or for us to get out. On a closing note I ask if we're in a WOT how does having our borders wide open make us safe? Can't have it both ways.
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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2007, 09:02:33 PM »

Powell is correct.  i don't think anyone would say that mistakes in execution and intel were not made.  however, his statement still does not address the disparity between the UN reports, Iraq documents, and the eventual disposition of the WMD.  Was the UN wrong?  Was Iraq lying?  Was our intel wrong.  why is the only option considered, our failure?  why were the special forces of Jordan helping us track his WMD so that we could either take them out or avoid being hit as we went in?  why did Egypt warn us that we would be hit as we went in? our 10,000 casualty number was not based on our intel alone.  it was the consensus of the world that the WMD were there.

as for the conduct of the Iraq government, all that you say is true.  I was also pleased to hear the general make a point that i have observed both 1st hand and in the study of history.  that is;  people coming out of a dictatorship do not have any concept of how to be free. 

you have examples starting with our early birth pains, through the fall of the USSR.  it often happens that countries become frustrated with the chaos of democracy and embrace another dictatorship out of desperation.  this can merely be a sad outcome for the population, as happened with Uganda, or a disaster for the world as happened with Iran.  it could be argued that there are some people who simply can not handle freedom and need to be ruled.  it can also be argued that shaping a free nation takes time and effort...and security.  i am not at all frustrated by the slow action of the Iraq government.  after all, look at our own government and it's lack of action as they fight and fuss.  i am not frustrated by the august holiday.  where were our leaders in august?  where were the French a few years ago when people were dying in the heat as the entire mobile population left for vacation?  in fact, sometimes a step back can lead to a leap forward.  we will have to see.

the question is not "what did happen?"  it is "what will happen?"  if we can give the Iraqi government some space, time, and security, they have a chance to pull this off.  and yes, they have to do it.  if we do not give them that, failure is assured.  having embarked on this adventure, i think we owe it to them and to us to see it through unless and until we know we are successful, or have failed.

i believe that Powell is an honorable man, however, i also remember that it was Powell that did not want to go the Baghdad in gulf1.  those of us who were serving at the time knew we would have to go back.  now the next generation.....my sons....are there to finish what we did not.  i do not want to see my grandchildren doing this again in 10 years time.


it is also worth considering the idea that if we presented a united and determined front, the enemy would not be so emboldened.  if there was a lesson we should have learned from Vietnam,  it is that the enemy watches.  we should think about just who gets strength from our words and actions. 


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2007, 08:45:00 PM »

YOU ALL NEED TO REMEBER WHY BUSH WENT TO IRAQ IN THE FRIST PLACE  WEPONS OF MAST DISTRUCTION    HAVE THEY FOUND ANY IN IRAQ  NO   SO I SAY PULL THE TROOPS OUT OF THERE  NOW !  I HAVE ALREADY LOST  3 FAMILY MEMBERS IN THIS SO CALLED  IRAQ WAR

Barney,

Everyone (France, and the entire world) thought at the time that Iraq had WMD,  If Bush was as corrupt as I think you imply, he would have planted what he sought to find and proudly proclaimed it was found.  I'm so sorry you have lost family members in this war.  Try to look beyond this if you can. 

And for your general information Barney, WMD was not the only reason for Gulf War II. We imposed a cease-fire in Gulf War I, in 1991.  Saddam AGREED to it.  We enforced a No Fly Zone.  And for 12 years, he instructed his AAA to shoot at our fighters and lock radar on our planes. A clear provocation...for 12 years. 

Norman Schwartzkopf made a MAJOR mistake in the "negotiations" after the first part of that war.  He allowed Saddam use of Helicopters in the North, with which he promptly was able to ruthlessly squash the uprising that Bush the Senior encouraged the Iraqis to initiate.   George Bush Senior gave FALSE HOPE to the People of Iraq and didn't back his words up.  George Bush Senior let the Iraqi people down FLAT.  For this he is forever in my eyes a failed President...


Now his son attempts to fix the mess his Dad left him.


Again Barney, I mourn your loss...



PS: ... Kathyp, you impress me.
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« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2007, 12:31:55 AM »

Another thing you never heard much about during the PRE-WAR and that was SHELF LIFE of the biological and chemical weapons. I know that from the earliest inspections any stockpiles would surely be expired on shelf-life. All these (not ballistics now - but dirty bombs mostly, the real fear is, I think all of us (especially the city folk) play the lottery with less than 2% ship's cargo boxes are inspected - you ever see the THOUSANDS of box cars though ships hold and I can't imagine the ports we receive from DAILY , the countless ships filling our EVERY Dock (Not just New York people - some people have this conception that as long as you are out of New York or Las Angeles, then you are safe, don't bet on it.

I know Saddam was a mass murdering "tyrant" (a "position" I must remind you which has worked for thousands of year - tyrants were not new with Saddam. But tyrants kept ORDER through a Murderous Response to the simplest of crimes) The country some how worked, remember Saddam was dealing with the whole factions issue LONG BEFORE we tried)

If indeed what we thought that Iraq was an immediate threat to us or friendly nations, and BUSH with the intention of RIDDING THE WORLD from a MAD MAN armed with WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, and did all that on BAD INTELLIGENCE - then a hundred years from now, when historians remember this time, they will know if we did the right thing, if we blundered, if we prevent the END OF THE WORLD (Biblically speaking of course) what is in store for OUR HISTORY which we WRITE TODAY?

I just simply believe that the above explanation is too easy of a SCAPEGOAT to quash the real "Gotta finish Daddy's Job and make Dick Cheney a few more billion - why not!" theory.

I can see WHY they are no longer and issue - they are moot compared to an exit strategy. I hostly wish that a President who says 30,000 deployed forces will come home soon, meanwhile 26,000 are on a plane going there now. And the minimum of a (what I call a withdraw) but GB won't start bring that 30,000 home until NEXT SUMMER END. How can we trust our President when his 30,000 troops is actually more like 21,000 because of battle necessities.

I'm afraid we will never fully come home - nor will it EVER be a truly safe place for Americans to be. But I see force at 80 to 100 thousand AFTER we have "Withdrawn" and that scares the hell out of me. Remember too - Our leadership states that "As long as American Citizens continue to work and rebuild Iraq" we will keep forces in Iraq to protect them. Isn't construction in Iraq pretty much as LIFE LONG JOB which you can PASS DOWN TO YOUR CHILDREN to carry on. Yep, if we protect American Interest in Iraq, we are going to have military there for ever. The final thought is - after everything is said and done, it will still be and endless military force in Iraq.

It is interesting, but I think we need a TRUE BILLIONAIRE in our WHITEHOUSE - give NYC May Bloomburg a shot at it - you can't buy the guy, he is really popular among New Yorkers (of all races) and I think the guy is honest - sarcastic looking which bugs me a bit) but he gets the job done. Not campaigning here - I just want a President that does the right thing because he knows it is the right thing to do - and with NO input from any kind of lobbyist or special interest group. If Bloomburg is worth the 7 Billion they say he is, then AT LEAST he could run this country like a business and get us moving in a direct that will make the US Competitive again in the world market. Remember, we get 80% of our toys from China and 100% of our lead based toys from them too!

I say buy American, sure you'll pay 1400% more for it, but the Illegal Immigrants will surely income - Most American's won't build toys or anything for dollars a day. I think the fact is that soon - only RICH PEOPLE will have their kids in college, everyone else will be in the trades. At least the Tradesmen will have jobs, most college kids return home and live 10 to 12 years doing jobs COMPLETELY out of the field they graduated from, because they poorly planned.

Remember - it is a RECESSION when your neighbor is without a job and a DEPRESSION when you are without one. I see some tough years ahead, I pray we never see a DRAFT in my lifetime again. It surely will cause horrible ripples for generation to remember.
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« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2007, 12:49:46 AM »

mklangelo, nothing to impress.  all the things i know are out there for anyone to know.  just takes a bit of time to do the research.

one might come to the conclusion that one is beating their head through the plaster from reading some of the erroneous conclusions reached by people who have not taken the time to do the study.  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2007, 07:05:01 AM »

Well, they think they've done the study by listening to what's spoonfed them by the lamestream media.   rolleyes  Newsflashes, heart-tugging sob stories and by the seat explanations.  Then on to American Idol....
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