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Author Topic: Brood vs. honey...in the deeps  (Read 3746 times)
saltheart
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« on: July 13, 2004, 09:26:40 AM »

Can't remember if I've asked this already...but there's a lot of stuff I can't remember, so here goes...

We started with nucs in mid-May. We put the 4 nuc frames in an empty deep with 6 empty frames with foundation. The bees took over rapidly and we set the second deep with 10 empty frames with foundation on top in short order.

What we've noticed since then is that the upper deep is being filled almost exclusively with honey and nectar. There doesn't seem to be any brood being built up there, it's all limited to the lower deep where the original frames were installed. There's brood being built on the original empty frames right next to the nuc frames in the lower deep. But there's no brood in the upper.

Of the 10 frames in the upper deep, the middle 6or 7 are fairly full, capped and uncapped. The outer frames are being built up, but we can probably rearrange things still, if that's what should be done.

We're got 2 hives, and the situation seems to be the same in both.

Any pointers on what, if anything, should be done? Or does this sound like typical hive activity and construction? Shouldn't there be brood in both deeps?

Thanks.
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Finman
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2004, 09:46:43 AM »

Quote from: saltheart
Can't remember if I've asked this already...but there's a lot of stuff I can't remember, so here goes...

We started with nucs in mid-May. .


If you have you colony in 2 supers, it should have  more this time of summer.

.
Quote
.
 upper deep is being filled almost exclusively with honey and nectar. There doesn't seem to be any brood being built up there, it's all limited to the lower deep where the original frames were installed.


Of the 10 frames in the upper deep, the middle 6or 7 are fairly full, capped and uncapped.  

We're got 2 hives, and the situation seems to be the same in both.

.


If it possible harvest your honey from frames so they get free space for brood and nectar.

It seems like hives have got plenty of honey and honey have restricted brood area too small. At  this time of year  hives should be 4-5 supers and 1,5 supers brood + pollen.
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michael l burnett
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2004, 07:12:02 PM »

your situation sounds like ours and we have been given different answers to our questions (wich are also similar to yours) . the majority opinon leans towards this being normal(and good) as the bees need honey for winter and unless your willing to trapse through the snow and feed them, let them make ther own food...only take the surplus like a farmer. i was wondering about harvesting a couple frames in upper deep to allow  easier acces to honey supers and combat tightness my friend finman worrys about. he does make a good point that honey is more expensive then sugar but i ask you... wich would you rather eat all winter?
          ...happy beekeeping...brookie
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Anonymous
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2004, 01:32:01 AM »

Saltheart,

Everyone does things a little differently, but it sounds like your bees are "honeybound". The workers have brought in nectar faster than the queen can lay eggs and now she's pretty much restricted to laying in the bottom hive body. If I had this situation I would do the following: 1. Move two frames of brood from the bottom hive body into the center of the top hive body. 2. Move the empty frames in the top hive body towards the center. 3. Move the frames full of honey that you removed from the center of the top hive body down to the outside of the bottom hive body.

What this does is allow the queen room in the center of the top hive body to lay eggs in. It orients the worker bees to working with the brood in the top hive body. It also creates some insulation (the honey frames) on the outside of the bottom hive body to help regulate the temperature of the brood in the bottom hive body on hot days or chilly nights.
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Finman
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2004, 08:02:27 AM »

Quote from: michael l burnett
let them make ther own food...only take the surplus like a farmer.


Sorry.. I am not bee's sosial worker. I take them all and I don't ask them nothing.


Quote
 my friend finman worrys about.


After  42 years experience I do not worry this kind of things. Just now I have many 2 frame hives for queen.  Frames are too full of honey. I just take honey and brood away and I put empty frames in.  Very simple.  Frames i put to bigger hive, which can hadle honey.

Quote
....he does make a good point that honey is more expensive then sugar but i ask you... wich would you rather eat all winter  


OH BOY!    I am in wrong company, sory  embarassed


And still I say: Now is the middle of the summer.  I cant understand why you are worried about winter? Winter is never problem. It comes and goes. I am just wondering how much i got honey?  60 kg or 100 kg per hive?  How to sell it. That is problem.  To get overwinter - no problem.

Hive must be big enough that it can handle space problem.

If I have 2-3 box hive now, I put them together.  Hive must have 5-6 supers. So it is able to harvest honey.  Little hives will be fulled in a week with honey, they stop working and think swarming.
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michael l burnett
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2004, 07:51:12 AM »

here i go talking about winter again...
   finman it sounds like good idea    (sugar in winter)

    how do you feed them it and how much...partner likes idea of taking honey so bees produce more...and feed cheaper food (sugar in water)

    we have much honey in hive now.....

        thank you

        brookie Smiley
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Finman
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2004, 10:28:03 AM »

Quote from: michael l burnett
here i go talking about winter again...
   finman it sounds like good idea    (sugar in winter)

    how do you feed them it and how much...partner likes idea of taking honey so bees produce more...and feed cheaper food (sugar in water)

    we have much honey in hive now.....

        thank you

        brookie Smiley


It is important to take honey from hive away as soon it is capped. So bees have free space and it affects their work motivation. If you have too much honey, bees cannot work efficiently.

In Finland we give 20 kg sugar per hive for winter. It is enough from begining of September to end of May. We have -10 -20 degrees frost. Honey will stay in hive about 5-10 kg.

On the top of hive we put 8 liter box. In there  60% sugar solution. It takes one week when bees move 3 liguid boxes inside the hive.

When flowers are gone and queen lays eggs any more,broos are about out,  it is time to feed hive full of sugar. I take all honey from frames away which have more than 1/3 full of honey. Full langstroth frame consist 2,5 kg honey.

Say, 2 box langstroth full of honey is about  35 kg. It is medium yield in our country in many areas. Why to live it to bees?

Frames which have pollen, are returned to hive before eating. Pollen has vitamins and proteins. Honey has only energy for bees like sugar.

They go over winter very well. Your spring comes 1 month ealier than ours, I guess. In Finland willow starts blooming about first of May.  Do not worry. You have easier coditions.
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michael l burnett
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2004, 05:35:34 PM »

sounds good .......our winter goes go from oct. -end of march
   thanks again for sharing your knowledge.  i need to find out more on winter feeding ...do you bring your hives out of elements/....does honey act as an insulator for the hive?...so much to know and we are very inexperienced and to busy to read much...heres a dumb question??? do bees sleep ,work in shifts,or what...whats up at night in there/?
                             brookie[/quote]
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Finman
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2004, 12:11:14 AM »

Quote from: michael l burnett
sounds good .......our winter goes go from oct. -end of march
   thanks again for sharing your knowledge.  i need to find out more on winter feeding ...do you bring your hives out of elements/....does honey act as an insulator for the hive?...so much to know and we are very inexperienced and to busy to read much...heres a dumb question??? do bees sleep ,work in shifts,or what...whats up at night in there/?
                             brookie
[/quote]


Winter ball of bee is as big brood area before wintering. If the last brood area like with us in August is one box, the space for winter is one box enough. If brood area is 1,5 supers, you must give to bees 2 supers for winter.

We have in Finland two habits:
1) Solid bottom with opening + upper opening for ventilation
2) Open grid bottom and no upper opening.

The last one is developed for polystyrene hives. I have used them since 1987.

If the wall is solid wood like I had 20 years ago, bees consume sugar 50% more than in insulated box.  Polystyrene box is very warm and bees develope in spring very fast.

Hive must protected from mouses, and birds. Birds are disturbing all the winter bees and eat them, but bees stand it.

Also you can do outer box for bees for wind protection. But I think that in your climate it is not necessary. Hungarian use 3 W electric heater on the bottom of hive.

Last year I used first time terrarium heater with bees and my invention were very new in Finland. I had  two frame colony which I carried through winter. There was 7 W heater in the hive and the hive was in fire wood shelter. It was fine!  In spring I took brood frames from big colinies and now that tiny colony is collecting honeys as his big sisters.

Also after cleaning flight I started to give soija flour-yeast-pollen -mixture to bees and their brood raising was 1,5  month ahead natural development.

Guestions

Honey does not act as insulator.

Bees are not sleeping. They consume food and vibrate their wing muscles and produce heat for winterball. Of course the warm rise upp.

Also when bees respirate and use food they produce water vapour. That vapour condense to water drops on walls. That is why many use grid bottom during winter.

With solid bottom you need to use upper entrance open because moisture will escape from hive. If hive is too tight, bees will get nosema and half of bees may die.

I use thin wood panel ceiling on top with 5 cm foam plastic mattress. It is also during summer in hives.

In our country origin of bees is important. Some bought nucs and queen from New Sealand. All colonies died. Also as we by queens from Italy, they are not able to survive over our long winter.

Ability to stand over long  winter is one of the most important character in our bees.

Last spring I had  5 colonies "coffee cup size", and with some trick and thanks to terrarium heater they have now five supers each.

When varroa mite come to my hives it brought many diseases with it. Little colonies did not survived over winter any more. 5 frames is minimun. But now I think that terrarium heater is solution in that problem.

Do they sleep at nigt  ? ---- It seems to me that they sleep and rest after hard flight. In the middle of the day you can find old workers hanging in the bottom of hive. I think that their muscles do not stand all the time working.

If you need  special adwices write to japehoo@hotmail.com
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michael l burnett
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wow
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2004, 01:34:49 PM »

wow...thanks..what an artform.  Our winters are worse than youd think. we are going to take some honey this weekend to open up hive some.also add second honey souper. see ya finman!
       brookie
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