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Author Topic: Double Deep Frames - Those using only mediums might want to close their eyes  (Read 3654 times)
Robo
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« on: July 29, 2007, 10:42:05 AM »

Yes weight is an issue,  but so is removing and replacing supers when doing inspections.  So I'm  experimenting on using double deep frames so I don't have to move boxes when inspecting.  The weight of one frame will be less than moving a medium to dig deeper into the hive, but they will be a little more challenging to handle than a normal frame.  I built the frames to fit into two stacked deep supers.   

Here is the first frame that has been drawn out.


There are more details here -> http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31
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bluegrass
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 10:44:21 AM »

What did you do about the unused frame rest? Interesting Idea.
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2007, 12:15:39 PM »

i'm guessing that you used standard top and bottom bars and then built the sides yourself.
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 12:27:55 PM »

what a experiment, bet that would work good in a double deep 5 frame nuc Wink , the only thing is if you let them burr comb it between inspection, how bad would it get tore up pulling a frame out? bee nice in a OB hive
 
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 04:23:27 PM »

Just one thought: The bees will now get fewer ways/spaces to go through and have to make a longer route in some cases.  Do the bees make more "holes/spaces" to navigate through than in a usual frame?  Or will they just have to make longer routes?
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2007, 08:55:31 PM »

"PLEASE,"PLEASE", Let me know what happens when they glue the end bars to the hive body "NEAR" the bottom.
You have made a good point for not having to move the boxes.
"BUT", If you have done your home work, then if I'm not wrong, I have never found a deep super filled mostly with brood, no where near as heavy as one filled with honey.

I hope you glued the frames well, with twenty pounds of honey and bee glue holding it,"IF" you have to pull one that  is filled with honey, you will have a problem.
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2007, 08:02:11 AM »


One other benefit is when overwintering they don't have to move through a box break.  Nice, continuous comb.

Is that comb strong enough?  I would think that you would want a little more support, maybe a couple of wire "x"'s.  But if it is working, this is only conjecture.

I still have to move all the 60# supers off to get to the brood box, so it don't matter too much to have an extra box to move.

Keep us updated.   It looks interesting.

Rick
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Rick
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2007, 08:16:09 AM »

Quote
What did you do about the unused frame rest? Interesting Idea.


Nothing.  I have it in a poly hive, but I don't think it matters.  The gap is behind the side bars and out of their way.

Quote
'm guessing that you used standard top and bottom bars and then built the sides yourself.


Well I did use top bars, but only because I had some extra pieces floating around.   I did rip them down to 1.25" so I can get 11 frames in the hive. 

Quote
the only thing is if you let them burr comb it between inspection, how bad would it get tore up pulling a frame out?


So far they have shown no interest in bur comb,  which I am actually surprised by since all the other frames are HSC.  I figure they have plenty of wax to use. 

Quote
bee nice in a OB hive


Never thought about that,  but would fit nicely in my observation hive.  Will have to keep that in mind.

Quote
Just one thought: The bees will now get fewer ways/spaces to go through and have to make a longer route in some cases.  Do the bees make more "holes/spaces" to navigate through than in a usual frame?  Or will they just have to make longer routes?


I guess it depends how you look at it.  With the larger frames, the bees can enter the bottom and shoot straight up the comb and not have to transverse the gaps between supers.  They did not make any holes/passages in the main comb.  There are holes left in the sides, but you see that even when letting them draw natural comb in mediums.

Quote
"PLEASE,"PLEASE", Let me know what happens when they glue the end bars to the hive body "NEAR" the bottom.


One of the reasons I didn't go with the Hoffman style frames was propolis.  With the staple spacers, there is 5/16" clearance at the top (and bottom) of every frame.  So propolis will be reduced to just the staple crown.   I'm sure if left unmanaged for a year, they would build brace comb and such,  but you would get the same problem if you neglected any type of hive.

Quote
"BUT", If you have done your home work, then if I'm not wrong, I have never found a deep super filled mostly with brood, no where near as heavy as one filled with honey.


OK huh  I don't disagree nor was I trying to insinuate anything contrary.  My objective was to eliminate jockeying boxes around.

Quote
I hope you glued the frames well, with twenty pounds of honey and bee glue holding it,"IF" you have to pull one that  is filled with honey, you will have a problem.


Yes, they are glued well and stapled.

Quote
Is that comb strong enough?  I would think that you would want a little more support, maybe a couple of wire "x"'s.  But if it is working, this is only conjecture.


Time will tell,  I have some pretty big TBH frames that have held up without problems. Once they get a few cycles of brood thru them they will harden right up.   Obviously they won't hold up to extracting, but that is not the plan.

Quote
I still have to move all the 60# supers off to get to the brood box, so it don't matter too much to have an extra box to move.


True,  but that is only part of the year, and if you are using all mediums, it is at least 2 extra boxes and if you want to do a full inspection, that could be 20 additional frames to pull and manipulate.  I'm not looking to convince anyone this is the "solves all problems" solution, just something I'm playing with grin
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2007, 11:48:30 AM »

>>>I'm not looking to convince anyone this is the "solves all problems" solution, just something I'm playing with

Smiley And I'm not trying to tell you it won't work, just jotting down some thoughts and questions...  I enjoy experimenting, and enjoy reading the results, successful or not, of the experiments of others. cool

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Rick
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 11:53:31 AM »

Rob, how cool is that!!!!  What an awesome experiment.  Do you think that you might be the first person on earth to try this new method?  I am so curious if anyone else has set their mind into action as you have, good for you, yeah!!!!!  Keep us posted on how it works for you, I think it is a beautiful plan.  Have a wonderful day, Cindi
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 12:53:28 AM »

Sorry if anyone read my reply  wrong. I'm all for trying new things and ways in anything.

What I had in mind was the fact that I have learned to try to manage the colony early in the spring to maximize population and at the same time keep it from swarming. "Reverse" brood boxes when needed if it appears the queen will not go back down. If necessary add the 3rd deep brood box.

Example, This past march, the last week in the month, I had a average large swarm. I used drawn comb and had to add the 3rd within a week. Never switched brood boxes on this one.
The excluder went on top the 3rd brood box and I had entrance holes in supers.
I have pulled 4 supers of honey from this colony and have two supers on it now and the kudzu is just starting to bloom.
Too much rambling, I learned to have the colonies ready by the time the main flow starts so there in no need to have to go into the brood boxes again till my fall pulldown/ winter preperation.
That is, Unless I want to split one or use one to make queens with.

With over wintered colonies I have found I have to rotate brood chambers on the first inspection, on a strong colony. I do it again just before the main flow, if it needs it.

One sure sign a colony needs more room, whether by reversing, or adding another box, Is when  the bees start building new wax on the cover/innercover. They are getting ready to hang comb from the covers. Scrape the wax off, add another box, or if you practice reversing, do it now.

Bottom line, no way I'm going to pull all the honey supers all during the summer to inspect the brood chambers. "Unless"  there is a sign of trouble.

Like I said, Didn't mean to upset anyone, ever.
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Robo
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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2007, 08:08:52 AM »

Doak, good points.

I guess another benefit would be no need to reverse since there is no gap for the queen to go over. As with the TBHs, the queen will just continue working her way down the comb as needed.
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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2007, 10:16:25 AM »

I never have any trouble with the queen going through the gap between boxex. It's where the Queen sometime doesn't won't to go back down, some seem to want to keep going up.
Say if I have 3 deeps on and the queen gets up in the 4th, 1ts "Honey super", I will reverse and use an x-cluder.
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2007, 11:42:14 AM »

I never have any trouble with the queen going through the gap between boxes. It's where the Queen sometime doesn't won't to go back down, some seem to want to keep going up.

Hmmmm...  Possibly related  huh    I've never seen a queen refuse to go down to the bottom of a frame to lay eggs (unless it is too close to the entrance) or go all the way down on a TBH frame.  Perhaps the gap does play a roll.
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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2007, 12:45:17 PM »

I was speaking of the queen going back down to the bottom box from the 2nd or 3rd brood box.
Not always, but I've had a few that insisted on staying in the upper box.
don't know why.
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2007, 12:51:06 PM »

I understand that.  I was just surmising that the gap may play a part in that.
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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2007, 10:12:19 PM »

My back hurt just looking at it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2007, 06:51:16 PM »

Howdy Robo,
  I like this idea. I have a two questions. 1. Looking at the frame, are the end bars straight sided all the way down? 2. Are the staple spacers on both sides of the frames or, are they only on one side and you have to put them in one way every time?
  Thank you.
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2007, 07:57:50 PM »

Quote
Howdy Robo,
  I like this idea. I have a two questions. 1. Looking at the frame, are the end bars straight sided all the way down? 2. Are the staple spacers on both sides of the frames or, are they only on one side and you have to put them in one way every time?
  Thank you.

Yes, the end bars are the same width all the way down.  There is a staple near the top and bottom of each end bar, but on opposite sides.  In the picture,  the two staples are visible on the left side, but are in the back on the right side.  This way the frame can be put in either way, but you don't have to worry about lining up staples that butt together.  This way the staple can just slide down the adjacent end bar.
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2007, 03:35:12 PM »

Thank you very much sir.
  I went to Lowes yesterday and bought some 1/2 inch x 1 1/2 to make some. They were shorts from something I guess because they were between 17 - 36 inches long.
  You used 2 deeps for yours but I'm going to make 1 with 2 deeps and the other with 1 deep and 1 medium to see how they do. No special reason, just because. Thanks for the information on the staples.
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2007, 01:45:10 PM »

The nice thing is you won't have to ever lift the box.  In fact, you CAN'T ever lift the box.  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2007, 11:37:44 PM »

Even though we have them in an unnatural environment (the box), IMHO, this may seem a little closer to a natural environment for them.  Would that not be one long brood nest as opposed to a shorter (single) or two shorters with a break (double/one and a half)?  Keep us up to date!!!
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