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Author Topic: MB what is this?????  (Read 7872 times)
TwT
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« on: July 24, 2007, 08:48:38 PM »

I have been reading a post on small cell on beesource about the HAS meeting, seems like your small cell aint doing good in the studies, if I am or they (UGA) are wrong whats the deal, you got a lot of followers on this site and we all need to know what to expect if they say small cell is know different, I know I am putting you in a pinch but dont mean to just would like to know what you think will happen in the studies from her first inspection, you the small cell king, was just wondering what you though about this review,,, here's the link from beesource for those not knowing what I am talking about...


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211838
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2007, 11:44:08 PM »

I am about to introduce small cell starter strips into my hive tomorrow. I have totally accepted all that I have read on this forum about the small cell helping with the mite problems. (I have one hive now with a huge infestation even though I have powdered sugar dusted them for over a month) I truly hope and pray this is actually working and I thought there was already proof of the small cell working for many beekeepers here on this forum. So reading this report sort of upset me.

So my question is: Is the small cell truly helping you to keep the mite population down????? I need to know because I am going to take the plunge. I know that MB has been successful, but how about other beekeepers????

Annette

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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2007, 03:34:39 AM »

annete, TREAT!!!! SC doesn't work over-night, if you don't treat ASAP you're bees won't last to get regressed. i hope you've read the part that says "regression takes at least 2 years".
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2007, 12:40:52 PM »

What sort of treatment do you mean??? I am trying not to use chemicals in my hive. I want to introduce the small cell starter strips because the bees will probably draw out drone cells at first and therefore I can just cut this whole frame out after they cap the brood. This should happen rather quickly because there are hardly any drone cells in this hive.

I want to do something for this hive, but not to the point where I end up contaminating the wax. I am open to any suggestions as long as it is natural and good in the long run.

Thank you for the reply Mici

Annette

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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2007, 12:45:19 PM »

i think mici is right.  sometimes you have to make the choice to save the bees.  my personal choice, after doing as much study as i could, was apiguard.  near as i can tell, it's as natural as you can get and still be effective.
i use the gel that comes in it's own little tray but i see the make a thymol strip now also.  with your heat, that might be the way to go.  you can always ask before you order. the mann lake people are pretty helpful and i'm sure others would be also.

if you don't act soon, you will lose the hive.
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2007, 02:04:51 PM »

I want to introduce the small cell starter strips because the bees will probably draw out drone cells at first and therefore I can just cut this whole frame out after they cap the brood. This should happen rather quickly because there are hardly any drone cells in this hive.
The reason they draw drone cells is because they feel they don't have enough.  If you cut them out,  they will continue to draw drone cells as once again they will not have enough.  You will fight a loosing battle if you keep taking away the drone cells.   You would be better off freezing them and then returning them to the hive.

Quote
I want to do something for this hive, but not to the point where I end up contaminating the wax. I am open to any suggestions as long as it is natural and good in the long run.

I used oxalic acid as did Michael (I believe) until he went treatment free.

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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2007, 09:41:57 PM »

>I have been reading a post on small cell on beesource about the HAS meeting, seems like your small cell aint doing good in the studies

They are a year into the study and so far there is no significant difference in mite counts.  As Dann Purvis said many times at HAS, it's not about mite counts, it's about survival.  All the people I know using small cell have bees that are surviving with no treatments.  Every time I tried that with large cell they crashed within two years from Varroa.  The study will mean a bit more at the two year mark and even more when hives start crashing and even more at the five and more year mark.  I'm at the six year mark.  Dee Lusby regressed in 1984 for tracheal mite help and has not treated since.

Also there is the issue of drones equalizing the mite populations throughout an apiary.  This skews mite counts a lot.  The real test will be when the mites reach critical mass.  Of course you still have the added pressure on the small cell from drifting.

I am just glad someone is finally doing a serious study.  It's not done yet.
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 10:31:22 AM »

Oh brother.  There is so much going on with the mite issues.  There has been so much discussion.  The small cell I am sure works once the bees are regressed.  But then, who knows what.  It will be interesting to see what comes of the study, once it has stood the test of time.  There are many small cell beeekeepers we hear of that have excellent results of zero (or next to zero) mites in their colonies.  That is wonderful, and it must be working for them, how else could they have the low mite (or zero) counts.

Formic acid and oxalic acid, if applied properly and at correct times of the year do not contaminate the wax.  Honey yes.  That is why the applications MUST be done at correct times of the year.  When treating the hives with formic acid, the honey must not be used for human consumption, but the bees can consume it 100% safely.  Oxalic acid is applied during the "no brood" period when the bees have stopped the queen from brood laying in the winter.  No human would be eating the honey at that time of the year either. KathyP uses Apiguard, I believe that is good too.

The awful chemicals the likes of coumophous contaminate the wax.  Oxalic and formic acids are safe in this regard.

Formic acid and oxalic acid have been used and are currently used extensively in Europe and worldwide.  It is proven to be very successful for killing the mites.  If mites are not kept under control to a certain degree, the colonies WILL collapse, there is no doubt about that.

I am one that will tell this first hand to every beekeeper.  Last year I had worked hard to build up my colonies from 3 to 10 and by the end of the season, I was down to one.  This was a direct result of swarming and mite over infestations.  My fault 100%.  There are many posts to do with the devasation of colonies from varroa mite.  Read, listen and learn.  My two cents, for the worth that it may hold.  Have a wonderful day, Cindi
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 01:41:48 AM »

I went and saw Dee Lusby this spring she has 900 hives small cell no treatment for over 20 years.It is a site to see she is really a great person
I would say small cell works really good for her.
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 01:37:56 PM »

I went and saw Dee Lusby this spring she has 900 hives small cell no treatment for over 20 years.
kirk-0



that's why their story says 1997, only 10 years, here's a quote and I will add the link

We have indeed taken on a puzzle. However, we think we have now found many of the pieces. First, we put our bees on 5.0 mm cell size foundation by making over 40,000 sheets for our brood nests. A long drought forced us to reconsider this cell size though. We have now placed into the field over 4,000 frames of 4.9 mm cell size foundation. That was done in 1997 during the drought and before going into Winter with our bees. We culled heavily to get the job done, shaking down our hives into only 1-2 deep brood boxes to over-Winter.


http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/lusbyjun1998.htm


I am not saying it doesn't work but I know bee's are living without small cell. I would like to see them report on this study every years also. I think its great they are putting alot into reasearching small cell, I tried a few sheets this year but my hives are going on 5 years and I have never treated, I am not sold on small cell yet but would like to see what they find out at UGA..
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 03:02:42 PM by TwT » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 03:44:57 PM »

 "my hives are going on 5 years and I have never treated"

TWT

You do not treat for mites?Huh How is that possible. What do you do to keep them away.
Annette
 
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 04:19:58 PM »

"my hives are going on 5 years and I have never treated"

TWT

You do not treat for mites?Huh How is that possible. What do you do to keep them away.
Annette
 



nothing, I have never treated a hive in my life, never even done a mite count or anything, know only 6 hives are going on 5 years old, the rest are inbetween those and some I raised and started this year, I have always collected feral hives and the ones that survive, stays, I have bought 3 kona queens when I started 4 years ago and 1 hive is still alive (it has requeened itself 2 times so for) and 3 PBA queens two years ago in the fall (all 3 still alive plus I have raised 5 queens from the PBA queens and all doing fine),  I have always believe bee's will adjust and tolerate the mites and vi-versa, mites dont want to kill its host, if that was true they would all die, bee's in russia and china have learned to co-exist with mites and I think it will just take some time before ours does the same, my father has 1 hive going on 16 years and 3 going on 14 years, he just bought the hive's to pollinate his garden, never knew he was suppose to treat them for them to live, he never heard of mites and the hives keep going, now he does let his hives swarm and all , doesn't go in them much but watches the entrances every day..


so for this year I have lost 1 hive that was 3 years old (not sure it was mites) and I have lost a swarm that I caught in augusta ga this year again not sure it was mites..

But dont think I am one of just a few that dont treat, there are more and more that doesn't treat hives and some have been doing it longer than me and not all of them are on small cell....
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 04:49:08 PM »

one thing I have seen the last few years in early spring was that it seems when the first batch of drones hatch the workers will drag any bee with mites on it to the entrance and drop, the ground will be crawling with bee's that have mites on them, mostly drones but I have seen this the last 2 years, hope to catch it this coming year and video it or at lest take some pictures, it will happen like this for 1-2 days and that's it...... if it happens at another time I have not seen it yet...
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 07:30:53 PM »

TwT,

Very interesting concept................I like it.

Steve
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 08:20:53 PM »

>that's why their story says 1997, only 10 years, here's a quote and I will add the link

Here's what Dee says:

> BTW Dee, what year did you FIRST start regressing (not all the way to
> 4.9mm but at all) and stop using chemicals altogether?
>

Reply:
Summer/Fall of 1983 we first noticed when we had purchased a quantity of
new
duraguild foundation from Dadant to modernize the family operation and
noticed
how large it seemed compared to what was in hives, something was wrong,
for
secondary diseases started that hadn't been seen in a long time. Mainly
EFB and
chalk. By the following spring/summer we were all over the local lab as
to
why and also sorting thru hives in the field frame by frame and
comparing sizes,
talking deeply with Ed's Dad and Grandfather and up in attic for what
was
saved back from previous purchases, to compare sizes and found 11
different ones
and that was frightening. We immediately stared putting all the small
down and
the large up and complaining as to why all the
variation...............Dr
Levin then was right with us.....for he too wanted to know what was
going on and
why the different sizes as he said he never knew this part and then he
let us
check deeper and deeper and read all we wanted to at library at
lab.........Dr
Levin was good, he really cared and worked with us and was the one that
kept
us writing to others to get info to find out what was going on after he
found
out my background. So basically we have been sizing down and changing
back
since 1983/84 and it has been a long, long ride to back before 4 gilt
edge stuff
and other like aluminum foundation, radiator foundation types, etc.

Never used chemicals, essential oils........and drugs only was TM that
was
for actual treatment and not across the board treating, and then we
phased it
out as we didn't like and burned much of what we found pulling it out,
and
basically did old shakedowns to stay ahead. By early 1990s we were into
propolis
paddies instead based on stuff Ed's grandpa had done with the labs early
on with
propolis used instead for foul in the 1960s before TM came on the
market, and
that took some nail biting and pulling of information from old family
files,
etc and then getting information found again at lab and grumbling
too.....ole
Dr Levin wasn't aware of this part either like the cell size changing up
and
up. Then we got into checking into breeding changes with him telling me
who to
write to check things out.

Now in saying this we did use PDB for super storage/frame storage and
even
wrote on that for Trachael mite control for equipment, but too like the
TM
phased that out when we phased in with the propolis paddies. From
propolis paddies
on in early 1990s we have been melting down everything. For when we
first
regressed we only fed new frames of smaller foundation into the
broodnest area and
put the bigger combs up. With second regression down we had learned our
lesson on this for comingling frames/supers for interchangeably
needing equipment and think it was a good part of our hitting wall in
year
eight with fouls, so when we went down second time and started retooling
wax in
1996 to get ready to shake down this time completely, we decided to go
all the
way, and also because Dr Erickson said prove it with SC as we had
started
fighting with him big time over the sizing by then for what local lab
wanted and
we wanted.....and we decided we wanted clean and no more foul......and
that
was bottom line, the hell with drawing line in sand as to what was right
for EU
this and so-called AHB that, for Nature didn't work that way.

Sorry I wrote so much....hard to explain it's been going on so long for
us

Dee
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 08:39:59 PM »

what was the first size they went to on regression, it doesn't say, it could have been bigger than pierco now at 5.25, all it says is they started down sizing cells the first time but compared to 5.4-5.6 that could be like pierco is now , she did say they waited 8 years for the second regression and that may have been when they went to 5.0,  there could be so many questions about this, so they regressed to help with efb and chalk, I know varroa wasn't discovered here until 87 and that was in wisconsin and Florida if I remember right.

so it the article in beesource wrong? or is that the continuation from your above post?
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2007, 05:29:58 PM »

>what was the first size they went to on regression, it doesn't say, it could have been bigger than pierco now at 5.25, all it says is they started down sizing cells the first time but compared to 5.4-5.6 that could be like pierco is now

5.0mm.

> she did say they waited 8 years for the second regression and that may have been when they went to 5.0

No, that's when they went to 4.9mm

>  there could be so many questions about this, so they regressed to help with efb and chalk, I know varroa wasn't discovered here until 87 and that was in wisconsin and Florida if I remember right.

Mostly it was for tracheal mites in 1984.

>so it the article in beesource wrong? or is that the continuation from your above post?

The article is probably talking about when they went to 4.9mm.  I asked Dee because I wasn't clear either.  The answer is direct from her.  I've seen the 5.0mm that Dadant provided for her.  It's 5.0mm DuraComb.
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2007, 06:30:12 PM »

thanks for clearing that up
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 10:38:28 AM »

Dan Purvis doesn't use small cell to best of my knowledge. I have three of his queens. The bees are smaller than my hygenics, proplize more, have uber-hygenic behaviour and fly a lillte earlier and in less ideal weather too.
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2007, 11:00:57 AM »

Dan Purvis doesn't use small cell to best of my knowledge. I have three of his queens. The bees are smaller than my hygenics, proplize more, have uber-hygenic behaviour and fly a lillte earlier and in less ideal weather too.

Dann doesn't use small cell, I haven't seen propolising in my PBA hive's, 
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