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Author Topic: MB what is this?????  (Read 8282 times)
blckoakbees
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2007, 05:31:49 PM »

Hi,

I have been doing the powder sugar dusting treatment for mites and it seems to be working.  I know Randy Oliver and some professors at the University of California at Davis are doing a study on it and the preliminary results seem to be good.  It is so easy.  I have just made it part of my routine to every two or three weeks.

Hope that's of help.
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Shawn
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2007, 06:43:12 PM »

So if there is no difference then should I not start out getting a small cell hive going? Just when I was happy and had a plan someone throws a wrench into it. I guess Ill set my sons hive up with the starter kit frm betterbee using the large cell plastic frames. Ill set mine up using all mediums using small cell wooden frames. This way Ill know which does better in my area. I thought bee keeping was going to bee easy.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2007, 07:23:32 PM »

>So if there is no difference then should I not start out getting a small cell hive going? Just when I was happy and had a plan someone throws a wrench into it. I guess Ill set my sons hive up with the starter kit frm betterbee using the large cell plastic frames. Ill set mine up using all mediums using small cell wooden frames. This way Ill know which does better in my area. I thought bee keeping was going to bee easy.

The difference I've seen is living and dying.  All the small cell beekeepers I know have gone through the same.  Losing all their bees because they don't want to treat, eventually discovering small cell and regressing and happily keeping bees now without treatments.

It's your choice.  I've seen a HUGE difference.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2007, 07:46:36 PM »

I dont see where it would hurt starting out with Small Cell, I dont use it but all my Bee's are from old survival hives and they wasn't getting treated then so I have never treated, now I have only owned 4 types of bee's, Feral's, Kona, PBA's and Russian, just got the Russians this past year, 2 of the Kona's lasted till the second year and one of them lasted 4 years,( lost it this year) have never lost a PBA hive or my removal hives, did lose 2 swarms I went and got this year, all other swarms I got this year I re-queened with a PBA queens or my feral queens and all doing fine.........  it is your choice, a lot of people have had good luck with SC but since I never needed it I dont use it, I did try a few sheets this year to see how they would draw it out and they didn't do to bad, cells looked good except were the reinforcing wire ran down the sheet, a few of them cells were larger!!!!!!
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2007, 08:20:57 PM »

Did you miss type here?


All the small cell beekeepers I know have gone through the same.  Losing all their bees because they don't want to treat, eventually discovering small cell and regressing and happily keeping bees now without treatments.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2007, 09:59:43 PM »

We all started with large cell bees.  All of them died.  Mine all died several times.  I finally used Apistan out of desperation and within two years while treating with Apistan, they STILL died because the mites were resistant.

After regressing they are doing fine with no treatments.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2007, 11:21:01 PM »

eeewwww MB, dont mention on that site that you feed your bee's, they will say you are not organic, Dee says on here that feeding is unnatural like using treatments. shhhhh Lips Sealed  grin Wink   also think she said that if you keep bee's on regular sized foundation that wasn't organic,,, sometime I wonder about people .....  I dont understand the term organic they use, wonder if they live in a area miles away from any other homes, hope thier bee's dont work a fertilized plant and bring back to there hives then they want be organic anymore......


this is Dee's reply to a post
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/message/39255
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2007, 06:14:31 AM »

Michael Bush

After reading it again I see now how you meant it. At first I thought it should have said... All the LARGE cell beekeepers............ THEN discovering small cell 

All the small cell beekeepers I know have gone through the same.  Losing all their bees because they don't want to treat, eventually discovering small cell and regressing and happily keeping bees now without treatments.

TwT

You really should read more on that list. She does say one needs to artificially feed when they first get bees. But after the bees are established the beekeeper should refrain from removing too much honey. They should leave enough so the bees have enough stores to make it through to the next flow. Then you don't have to artificially feed.

What you call regular sized foundation is not natural sized. (Mainly in the brood nest.) But I don't think she ever said it wasn't organic.
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2007, 07:53:14 AM »


What you call regular sized foundation is not natural sized. (Mainly in the brood nest.) But I don't think she ever said it wasn't organic.



that's what the topic was about was raising bee's organically and defining organic so when the cell size came up I just figured that's what they mean or she wouldn't have said it. it looks to be some interesting discussion on that board......

the topic started here with someone talking about getting offended about asking a question dealing using organic treatment be organic.... maybe I misunderstood something, want be the first time but that just how I read it.....


http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/message/39273
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2007, 10:14:37 AM »

Well it started long before that. One guy asked a question about some FGMO I think it was and Dee answered with a complete explanation about why it shouldn't be used. Then this other guy didn't like the answer or something and started out on this big long tangent. I couldn't keep my mouth shut and accused him of coming on there and just wanted to start arguments (I think I am still right about that) and it sort of mushroomed from there.

But about large cell foundation being organic? I suppose if you go with what bees do themselves as the organic limit then large cell wouldn't bee organic I guess. But since bees do make cells really large sometimes for storage and drones, then it could be organic. But if it is plastic could it still be organic?

The main theme of the list is to not put into the hive what the bees themselves don't bring in. (yes you have to have man made hives to keep bees in or you wouldn't have bees and therefore no need for the organic, or natural, way of beekeeping, so please don't start down that road. 
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Kirk-o
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2007, 12:49:08 PM »

You Know the Organicbeekeepers page on Yahoo isn't about Brain Surgery or other complicated subjects.The guy on there who is ranting and raveing about the definition of Organic has either.
1- Misunderstood the Discription on the opening page
2-Is a lawyer
3- Or has a Phd. as a Linguist
4-Or is a Politician

Most normal Pratical people do good on that Beekeeping page.

kirk-o
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2007, 01:13:15 PM »

>eeewwww MB, dont mention on that site that you feed your bee's, they will say you are not organic

Not exactly.  They will tell you it's best to leave them honey or, if there's not enough, feed them honey, but no one will say you shouldn't feed syrup rather than let them starve.

The biggest problem on the list is that every few months someone joins who wants to talk about "organic treatments" and the topic on the list is to talk about how to keep bees so they don't need treatments.  So then you spend a huge amount of energy trying to get them to understand the topic of the list.  The topic is how to keep bees without needing interventions to keep them alive.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2007, 01:38:50 PM »

Ten---Four Michael
kirko
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2007, 03:26:23 PM »

I understand what yaw are talking about, but I can also see what they are talking about, I have heard people calling essential oils types of organic treatments because they are natural even though they aren't natural in a hive, also heard some refer to FGMO as being organic but I think most mistake the word organic for nontoxic most times, so I could understand there thinking, but I do laugh at the term organic, maybe it should be call "all natural beekeeping" from what I have read and like people say when you use the name organic, prove it!!! let one bee work a fertilized plant and that's over, but that's not my call, it is some interesting reading on that forum, just rambling a few thoughts!!!!
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reinbeau
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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2007, 07:08:14 PM »

Ted, it's complicated.  There are at least three different tangents involved with using the term 'organic'.

1) Keeping bees 'organically' to many means you do absolutely nothing to the bees (other than getting them onto small or natural cell).  If the bees can't make it, then they die out - natural selection.  I believe this is why you don't see this much in commercial beekeeping, because they just can't afford to lose their bees.

2)  Selling 'organic' honey - as far as I'm concerned, it can't be done.  Unless you can guarantee that no one within say a three mile radius from you is using any chemicals then you can't guarantee that the honey is organic

3) Some believe using the least toxic methods, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, etc. don't qualify as 'chemical treatments'.  Thus, they are keeping their bees organically.  The 1)'s will argue that until the cows come home  evil

We want to keep our bees alive.  They came from stock that had been treated.  Therefore we have treated all six of our hives with Miteaway II.  Next year we'll reevaluate that and try the powdered sugar method, then in the fall decide where to go from there.  I'm just hoping that out of those six hives we have bees left next spring!  shocked
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2007, 10:35:05 AM »

We want to keep our bees alive.  They came from stock that had been treated.  Therefore we have treated all six of our hives with Miteaway II.  Next year we'll reevaluate that and try the powdered sugar method, then in the fall decide where to go from there.  I'm just hoping that out of those six hives we have bees left next spring!  shocked

if you want to get away from treating bee's, do some removals that have been there for a few years or buy queens from stock that wasn't being treated, they are out there and they are growing........ you may lose some then again you might get lucky but that's the way it goes..... I myself will not buy queens from places that treat bee's, like I have said before that I will buy queens from Purvis Brothers Apiaries, I bought my first queens from them 3 years ago and they are still going plus I raised some from their queens and they are doing fine also, I also have my feral hives I removed and they do fine to..... if you want to not treat bee's you need to start with untreated bee's... why not re queen those hives you are treating... 
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2007, 11:14:18 AM »

For me I am not organic. Simply because I cannot tell you what my neighbors have used on their plants within a 2 mile area.

I do not put chemicals in my hives. I might do a powdered sugar treatment. But I haven't seen mites on my established hives for six months now. Part of that I was out of town for. But the recent inspections have shown no mites. Next year is going to be interesting if I can keep it that way.

I am looking at doing the SHB traps that tillie talked about. But that will keep Food Grade Mineral Oil in a container and not on my honey or my bees.

I do feed my bees. Honey mixed with some water if they need it. That happens rarely. I have one hive right now I am feeding because it was a queenless after swarm. If there are 100 bees I would be amazed. I have a caged queen in with them right now and a entrance jar with honey and water in it. They haven't even started building comb yet. I hope they make it. I may throw in a comb frame or two but I don't want to disrupt them to much right now..
Also if I throw in a comb frame they will end up with a wax moth issue that will be undesirable. So I will wait. and let them go in their own for a bit.

If they managed to make it. It will be at least 4 months before I can really do anything with them. By then I won't be feeding them and They will be building on a small cell setup. If is likely to be at least another two months after that before they are really sustainable. But they won't get any chemicals other than maybe a powdered sugar treatment and only if they really need it.

I do right now like the results I am seeing with small cell, top entrances, and screened bottom boards. No mites.

I am not trying to be organic. I am just lazy and see no reason to use chemicals on my hives. Chemicals cost money. So list me as the poor and lazy beekeeper.

Sincerely,
Brendhan


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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2007, 12:04:18 PM »

I do not put chemicals in my hives.

Not trying to stir the pot here, because I pretty much practice the same principals as you (less the SBB and top entrances, but thats probably more a geo difference than ideology).

BUT.... what is sugar and FGMO if they are not chemicals?  Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.  I see so many people that claim to be chemical free and yet put all kinds of stuff, like sugar,  that is highly processed with chemicals that are probably much worse than things like oxalic acid.

I don't put much faith in anything "organic" and have come to accept it mainly revolves around $$$.


Quote
3) Some believe using the least toxic methods, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, etc. don't qualify as 'chemical treatments'.  Thus, they are keeping their bees organically.  The 1)'s will argue that until the cows come home  evil

I assume these are organic milk producing cows grin  And they must be wrong.  Oxalic/Formic acid are organic acid by definition tongue

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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2007, 12:46:05 PM »

I do not put chemicals in my hives.

Not trying to stir the pot here, because I pretty much practice the same principals as you (less the SBB and top entrances, but thats probably more a geo difference than ideology).

BUT.... what is sugar and FGMO if they are not chemicals?  Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.  I see so many people that claim to be chemical free and yet put all kinds of stuff, like sugar,  that is highly processed with chemicals that are probably much worse than things like oxalic acid.

I don't put much faith in anything "organic" and have come to accept it mainly revolves around $$$.


Quote
3) Some believe using the least toxic methods, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, etc. don't qualify as 'chemical treatments'.  Thus, they are keeping their bees organically.  The 1)'s will argue that until the cows come home  evil

I assume these are organic milk producing cows grin  And they must be wrong.  Oxalic/Formic acid are organic acid by definition tongue



My opinion is that Oxalic/Formic acid are chemicals. They may be naturally occuring chemicals but they are chemicals. It even has an MSDS rating.

Powdered sugar can be a chemical also. But basically it is finely ground sugar with nothing added. It does not have an MSDS rating. I haven't used it in 6 months and then only on one hive.

The FGMO is a chemical. The difference is that it is kept in a container that does not get on my comb or bees. It has an MSDS rating. I know people who pour it on their frames and hives. That would not be chemical free in my opinion. I haven't started using them yet. So they are not a factor. If I decided to keep a chemical wasp trap in the yard it would be the same thing.

And as I said I couldn't be organic even if I wanted to because of the surrounding area.
However I am pretty comfortable listing it as chemical free and lazy. Cheesy

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2007, 01:32:36 PM »

You missed the point, I am not trying to critique your methods.
 
The point is, everything is a chemical.  You just can't arbitrarily draw your own line.  If you are doing anything other than just robbing honey from a colony, using the words "non-chemical" does nothing more than continue to propagate this misnomer.

But basically it is finely ground sugar with nothing added.


Unless your grinding your own, I think you will find anti-caking agents are added.  Not to mention all the chemical used in making the sugar in the first place. Wink
http://www.qemi.com/html/sugar.htm


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