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Author Topic: MB what is this?????  (Read 7711 times)
TwT
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« on: July 24, 2007, 08:48:38 PM »

I have been reading a post on small cell on beesource about the HAS meeting, seems like your small cell aint doing good in the studies, if I am or they (UGA) are wrong whats the deal, you got a lot of followers on this site and we all need to know what to expect if they say small cell is know different, I know I am putting you in a pinch but dont mean to just would like to know what you think will happen in the studies from her first inspection, you the small cell king, was just wondering what you though about this review,,, here's the link from beesource for those not knowing what I am talking about...


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211838
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2007, 11:44:08 PM »

I am about to introduce small cell starter strips into my hive tomorrow. I have totally accepted all that I have read on this forum about the small cell helping with the mite problems. (I have one hive now with a huge infestation even though I have powdered sugar dusted them for over a month) I truly hope and pray this is actually working and I thought there was already proof of the small cell working for many beekeepers here on this forum. So reading this report sort of upset me.

So my question is: Is the small cell truly helping you to keep the mite population down????? I need to know because I am going to take the plunge. I know that MB has been successful, but how about other beekeepers????

Annette

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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2007, 03:34:39 AM »

annete, TREAT!!!! SC doesn't work over-night, if you don't treat ASAP you're bees won't last to get regressed. i hope you've read the part that says "regression takes at least 2 years".
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2007, 12:40:52 PM »

What sort of treatment do you mean??? I am trying not to use chemicals in my hive. I want to introduce the small cell starter strips because the bees will probably draw out drone cells at first and therefore I can just cut this whole frame out after they cap the brood. This should happen rather quickly because there are hardly any drone cells in this hive.

I want to do something for this hive, but not to the point where I end up contaminating the wax. I am open to any suggestions as long as it is natural and good in the long run.

Thank you for the reply Mici

Annette

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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2007, 12:45:19 PM »

i think mici is right.  sometimes you have to make the choice to save the bees.  my personal choice, after doing as much study as i could, was apiguard.  near as i can tell, it's as natural as you can get and still be effective.
i use the gel that comes in it's own little tray but i see the make a thymol strip now also.  with your heat, that might be the way to go.  you can always ask before you order. the mann lake people are pretty helpful and i'm sure others would be also.

if you don't act soon, you will lose the hive.
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2007, 02:04:51 PM »

I want to introduce the small cell starter strips because the bees will probably draw out drone cells at first and therefore I can just cut this whole frame out after they cap the brood. This should happen rather quickly because there are hardly any drone cells in this hive.
The reason they draw drone cells is because they feel they don't have enough.  If you cut them out,  they will continue to draw drone cells as once again they will not have enough.  You will fight a loosing battle if you keep taking away the drone cells.   You would be better off freezing them and then returning them to the hive.

Quote
I want to do something for this hive, but not to the point where I end up contaminating the wax. I am open to any suggestions as long as it is natural and good in the long run.

I used oxalic acid as did Michael (I believe) until he went treatment free.

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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2007, 09:41:57 PM »

>I have been reading a post on small cell on beesource about the HAS meeting, seems like your small cell aint doing good in the studies

They are a year into the study and so far there is no significant difference in mite counts.  As Dann Purvis said many times at HAS, it's not about mite counts, it's about survival.  All the people I know using small cell have bees that are surviving with no treatments.  Every time I tried that with large cell they crashed within two years from Varroa.  The study will mean a bit more at the two year mark and even more when hives start crashing and even more at the five and more year mark.  I'm at the six year mark.  Dee Lusby regressed in 1984 for tracheal mite help and has not treated since.

Also there is the issue of drones equalizing the mite populations throughout an apiary.  This skews mite counts a lot.  The real test will be when the mites reach critical mass.  Of course you still have the added pressure on the small cell from drifting.

I am just glad someone is finally doing a serious study.  It's not done yet.
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 10:31:22 AM »

Oh brother.  There is so much going on with the mite issues.  There has been so much discussion.  The small cell I am sure works once the bees are regressed.  But then, who knows what.  It will be interesting to see what comes of the study, once it has stood the test of time.  There are many small cell beeekeepers we hear of that have excellent results of zero (or next to zero) mites in their colonies.  That is wonderful, and it must be working for them, how else could they have the low mite (or zero) counts.

Formic acid and oxalic acid, if applied properly and at correct times of the year do not contaminate the wax.  Honey yes.  That is why the applications MUST be done at correct times of the year.  When treating the hives with formic acid, the honey must not be used for human consumption, but the bees can consume it 100% safely.  Oxalic acid is applied during the "no brood" period when the bees have stopped the queen from brood laying in the winter.  No human would be eating the honey at that time of the year either. KathyP uses Apiguard, I believe that is good too.

The awful chemicals the likes of coumophous contaminate the wax.  Oxalic and formic acids are safe in this regard.

Formic acid and oxalic acid have been used and are currently used extensively in Europe and worldwide.  It is proven to be very successful for killing the mites.  If mites are not kept under control to a certain degree, the colonies WILL collapse, there is no doubt about that.

I am one that will tell this first hand to every beekeeper.  Last year I had worked hard to build up my colonies from 3 to 10 and by the end of the season, I was down to one.  This was a direct result of swarming and mite over infestations.  My fault 100%.  There are many posts to do with the devasation of colonies from varroa mite.  Read, listen and learn.  My two cents, for the worth that it may hold.  Have a wonderful day, Cindi
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 01:41:48 AM »

I went and saw Dee Lusby this spring she has 900 hives small cell no treatment for over 20 years.It is a site to see she is really a great person
I would say small cell works really good for her.
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 01:37:56 PM »

I went and saw Dee Lusby this spring she has 900 hives small cell no treatment for over 20 years.
kirk-0



that's why their story says 1997, only 10 years, here's a quote and I will add the link

We have indeed taken on a puzzle. However, we think we have now found many of the pieces. First, we put our bees on 5.0 mm cell size foundation by making over 40,000 sheets for our brood nests. A long drought forced us to reconsider this cell size though. We have now placed into the field over 4,000 frames of 4.9 mm cell size foundation. That was done in 1997 during the drought and before going into Winter with our bees. We culled heavily to get the job done, shaking down our hives into only 1-2 deep brood boxes to over-Winter.


http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/lusbyjun1998.htm


I am not saying it doesn't work but I know bee's are living without small cell. I would like to see them report on this study every years also. I think its great they are putting alot into reasearching small cell, I tried a few sheets this year but my hives are going on 5 years and I have never treated, I am not sold on small cell yet but would like to see what they find out at UGA..
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 03:44:57 PM »

 "my hives are going on 5 years and I have never treated"

TWT

You do not treat for mites?Huh How is that possible. What do you do to keep them away.
Annette
 
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 04:19:58 PM »

"my hives are going on 5 years and I have never treated"

TWT

You do not treat for mites?Huh How is that possible. What do you do to keep them away.
Annette
 



nothing, I have never treated a hive in my life, never even done a mite count or anything, know only 6 hives are going on 5 years old, the rest are inbetween those and some I raised and started this year, I have always collected feral hives and the ones that survive, stays, I have bought 3 kona queens when I started 4 years ago and 1 hive is still alive (it has requeened itself 2 times so for) and 3 PBA queens two years ago in the fall (all 3 still alive plus I have raised 5 queens from the PBA queens and all doing fine),  I have always believe bee's will adjust and tolerate the mites and vi-versa, mites dont want to kill its host, if that was true they would all die, bee's in russia and china have learned to co-exist with mites and I think it will just take some time before ours does the same, my father has 1 hive going on 16 years and 3 going on 14 years, he just bought the hive's to pollinate his garden, never knew he was suppose to treat them for them to live, he never heard of mites and the hives keep going, now he does let his hives swarm and all , doesn't go in them much but watches the entrances every day..


so for this year I have lost 1 hive that was 3 years old (not sure it was mites) and I have lost a swarm that I caught in augusta ga this year again not sure it was mites..

But dont think I am one of just a few that dont treat, there are more and more that doesn't treat hives and some have been doing it longer than me and not all of them are on small cell....
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 04:49:08 PM »

one thing I have seen the last few years in early spring was that it seems when the first batch of drones hatch the workers will drag any bee with mites on it to the entrance and drop, the ground will be crawling with bee's that have mites on them, mostly drones but I have seen this the last 2 years, hope to catch it this coming year and video it or at lest take some pictures, it will happen like this for 1-2 days and that's it...... if it happens at another time I have not seen it yet...
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 07:30:53 PM »

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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 08:20:53 PM »

>that's why their story says 1997, only 10 years, here's a quote and I will add the link

Here's what Dee says:

> BTW Dee, what year did you FIRST start regressing (not all the way to
> 4.9mm but at all) and stop using chemicals altogether?
>

Reply:
Summer/Fall of 1983 we first noticed when we had purchased a quantity of
new
duraguild foundation from Dadant to modernize the family operation and
noticed
how large it seemed compared to what was in hives, something was wrong,
for
secondary diseases started that hadn't been seen in a long time. Mainly
EFB and
chalk. By the following spring/summer we were all over the local lab as
to
why and also sorting thru hives in the field frame by frame and
comparing sizes,
talking deeply with Ed's Dad and Grandfather and up in attic for what
was
saved back from previous purchases, to compare sizes and found 11
different ones
and that was frightening. We immediately stared putting all the small
down and
the large up and complaining as to why all the
variation...............Dr
Levin then was right with us.....for he too wanted to know what was
going on and
why the different sizes as he said he never knew this part and then he
let us
check deeper and deeper and read all we wanted to at library at
lab.........Dr
Levin was good, he really cared and worked with us and was the one that
kept
us writing to others to get info to find out what was going on after he
found
out my background. So basically we have been sizing down and changing
back
since 1983/84 and it has been a long, long ride to back before 4 gilt
edge stuff
and other like aluminum foundation, radiator foundation types, etc.

Never used chemicals, essential oils........and drugs only was TM that
was
for actual treatment and not across the board treating, and then we
phased it
out as we didn't like and burned much of what we found pulling it out,
and
basically did old shakedowns to stay ahead. By early 1990s we were into
propolis
paddies instead based on stuff Ed's grandpa had done with the labs early
on with
propolis used instead for foul in the 1960s before TM came on the
market, and
that took some nail biting and pulling of information from old family
files,
etc and then getting information found again at lab and grumbling
too.....ole
Dr Levin wasn't aware of this part either like the cell size changing up
and
up. Then we got into checking into breeding changes with him telling me
who to
write to check things out.

Now in saying this we did use PDB for super storage/frame storage and
even
wrote on that for Trachael mite control for equipment, but too like the
TM
phased that out when we phased in with the propolis paddies. From
propolis paddies
on in early 1990s we have been melting down everything. For when we
first
regressed we only fed new frames of smaller foundation into the
broodnest area and
put the bigger combs up. With second regression down we had learned our
lesson on this for comingling frames/supers for interchangeably
needing equipment and think it was a good part of our hitting wall in
year
eight with fouls, so when we went down second time and started retooling
wax in
1996 to get ready to shake down this time completely, we decided to go
all the
way, and also because Dr Erickson said prove it with SC as we had
started
fighting with him big time over the sizing by then for what local lab
wanted and
we wanted.....and we decided we wanted clean and no more foul......and
that
was bottom line, the hell with drawing line in sand as to what was right
for EU
this and so-called AHB that, for Nature didn't work that way.

Sorry I wrote so much....hard to explain it's been going on so long for
us

Dee
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 08:39:59 PM »

what was the first size they went to on regression, it doesn't say, it could have been bigger than pierco now at 5.25, all it says is they started down sizing cells the first time but compared to 5.4-5.6 that could be like pierco is now , she did say they waited 8 years for the second regression and that may have been when they went to 5.0,  there could be so many questions about this, so they regressed to help with efb and chalk, I know varroa wasn't discovered here until 87 and that was in wisconsin and Florida if I remember right.

so it the article in beesource wrong? or is that the continuation from your above post?
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2007, 05:29:58 PM »

>what was the first size they went to on regression, it doesn't say, it could have been bigger than pierco now at 5.25, all it says is they started down sizing cells the first time but compared to 5.4-5.6 that could be like pierco is now

5.0mm.

> she did say they waited 8 years for the second regression and that may have been when they went to 5.0

No, that's when they went to 4.9mm

>  there could be so many questions about this, so they regressed to help with efb and chalk, I know varroa wasn't discovered here until 87 and that was in wisconsin and Florida if I remember right.

Mostly it was for tracheal mites in 1984.

>so it the article in beesource wrong? or is that the continuation from your above post?

The article is probably talking about when they went to 4.9mm.  I asked Dee because I wasn't clear either.  The answer is direct from her.  I've seen the 5.0mm that Dadant provided for her.  It's 5.0mm DuraComb.
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2007, 06:30:12 PM »

thanks for clearing that up
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 10:38:28 AM »

Dan Purvis doesn't use small cell to best of my knowledge. I have three of his queens. The bees are smaller than my hygenics, proplize more, have uber-hygenic behaviour and fly a lillte earlier and in less ideal weather too.
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2007, 11:00:57 AM »

Dan Purvis doesn't use small cell to best of my knowledge. I have three of his queens. The bees are smaller than my hygenics, proplize more, have uber-hygenic behaviour and fly a lillte earlier and in less ideal weather too.

Dann doesn't use small cell, I haven't seen propolising in my PBA hive's, 
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2007, 05:31:49 PM »

Hi,

I have been doing the powder sugar dusting treatment for mites and it seems to be working.  I know Randy Oliver and some professors at the University of California at Davis are doing a study on it and the preliminary results seem to be good.  It is so easy.  I have just made it part of my routine to every two or three weeks.

Hope that's of help.
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2007, 06:43:12 PM »

So if there is no difference then should I not start out getting a small cell hive going? Just when I was happy and had a plan someone throws a wrench into it. I guess Ill set my sons hive up with the starter kit frm betterbee using the large cell plastic frames. Ill set mine up using all mediums using small cell wooden frames. This way Ill know which does better in my area. I thought bee keeping was going to bee easy.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2007, 07:23:32 PM »

>So if there is no difference then should I not start out getting a small cell hive going? Just when I was happy and had a plan someone throws a wrench into it. I guess Ill set my sons hive up with the starter kit frm betterbee using the large cell plastic frames. Ill set mine up using all mediums using small cell wooden frames. This way Ill know which does better in my area. I thought bee keeping was going to bee easy.

The difference I've seen is living and dying.  All the small cell beekeepers I know have gone through the same.  Losing all their bees because they don't want to treat, eventually discovering small cell and regressing and happily keeping bees now without treatments.

It's your choice.  I've seen a HUGE difference.
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2007, 07:46:36 PM »

I dont see where it would hurt starting out with Small Cell, I dont use it but all my Bee's are from old survival hives and they wasn't getting treated then so I have never treated, now I have only owned 4 types of bee's, Feral's, Kona, PBA's and Russian, just got the Russians this past year, 2 of the Kona's lasted till the second year and one of them lasted 4 years,( lost it this year) have never lost a PBA hive or my removal hives, did lose 2 swarms I went and got this year, all other swarms I got this year I re-queened with a PBA queens or my feral queens and all doing fine.........  it is your choice, a lot of people have had good luck with SC but since I never needed it I dont use it, I did try a few sheets this year to see how they would draw it out and they didn't do to bad, cells looked good except were the reinforcing wire ran down the sheet, a few of them cells were larger!!!!!!
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2007, 08:20:57 PM »

Did you miss type here?


All the small cell beekeepers I know have gone through the same.  Losing all their bees because they don't want to treat, eventually discovering small cell and regressing and happily keeping bees now without treatments.
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2007, 09:59:43 PM »

We all started with large cell bees.  All of them died.  Mine all died several times.  I finally used Apistan out of desperation and within two years while treating with Apistan, they STILL died because the mites were resistant.

After regressing they are doing fine with no treatments.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2007, 11:21:01 PM »

eeewwww MB, dont mention on that site that you feed your bee's, they will say you are not organic, Dee says on here that feeding is unnatural like using treatments. shhhhh Lips Sealed  grin Wink   also think she said that if you keep bee's on regular sized foundation that wasn't organic,,, sometime I wonder about people .....  I dont understand the term organic they use, wonder if they live in a area miles away from any other homes, hope thier bee's dont work a fertilized plant and bring back to there hives then they want be organic anymore......


this is Dee's reply to a post
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/message/39255
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2007, 06:14:31 AM »

Michael Bush

After reading it again I see now how you meant it. At first I thought it should have said... All the LARGE cell beekeepers............ THEN discovering small cell 

All the small cell beekeepers I know have gone through the same.  Losing all their bees because they don't want to treat, eventually discovering small cell and regressing and happily keeping bees now without treatments.

TwT

You really should read more on that list. She does say one needs to artificially feed when they first get bees. But after the bees are established the beekeeper should refrain from removing too much honey. They should leave enough so the bees have enough stores to make it through to the next flow. Then you don't have to artificially feed.

What you call regular sized foundation is not natural sized. (Mainly in the brood nest.) But I don't think she ever said it wasn't organic.
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2007, 07:53:14 AM »


What you call regular sized foundation is not natural sized. (Mainly in the brood nest.) But I don't think she ever said it wasn't organic.



that's what the topic was about was raising bee's organically and defining organic so when the cell size came up I just figured that's what they mean or she wouldn't have said it. it looks to be some interesting discussion on that board......

the topic started here with someone talking about getting offended about asking a question dealing using organic treatment be organic.... maybe I misunderstood something, want be the first time but that just how I read it.....


http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/message/39273
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2007, 10:14:37 AM »

Well it started long before that. One guy asked a question about some FGMO I think it was and Dee answered with a complete explanation about why it shouldn't be used. Then this other guy didn't like the answer or something and started out on this big long tangent. I couldn't keep my mouth shut and accused him of coming on there and just wanted to start arguments (I think I am still right about that) and it sort of mushroomed from there.

But about large cell foundation being organic? I suppose if you go with what bees do themselves as the organic limit then large cell wouldn't bee organic I guess. But since bees do make cells really large sometimes for storage and drones, then it could be organic. But if it is plastic could it still be organic?

The main theme of the list is to not put into the hive what the bees themselves don't bring in. (yes you have to have man made hives to keep bees in or you wouldn't have bees and therefore no need for the organic, or natural, way of beekeeping, so please don't start down that road. 
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2007, 12:49:08 PM »

You Know the Organicbeekeepers page on Yahoo isn't about Brain Surgery or other complicated subjects.The guy on there who is ranting and raveing about the definition of Organic has either.
1- Misunderstood the Discription on the opening page
2-Is a lawyer
3- Or has a Phd. as a Linguist
4-Or is a Politician

Most normal Pratical people do good on that Beekeeping page.

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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2007, 01:13:15 PM »

>eeewwww MB, dont mention on that site that you feed your bee's, they will say you are not organic

Not exactly.  They will tell you it's best to leave them honey or, if there's not enough, feed them honey, but no one will say you shouldn't feed syrup rather than let them starve.

The biggest problem on the list is that every few months someone joins who wants to talk about "organic treatments" and the topic on the list is to talk about how to keep bees so they don't need treatments.  So then you spend a huge amount of energy trying to get them to understand the topic of the list.  The topic is how to keep bees without needing interventions to keep them alive.
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2007, 01:38:50 PM »

Ten---Four Michael
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2007, 03:26:23 PM »

I understand what yaw are talking about, but I can also see what they are talking about, I have heard people calling essential oils types of organic treatments because they are natural even though they aren't natural in a hive, also heard some refer to FGMO as being organic but I think most mistake the word organic for nontoxic most times, so I could understand there thinking, but I do laugh at the term organic, maybe it should be call "all natural beekeeping" from what I have read and like people say when you use the name organic, prove it!!! let one bee work a fertilized plant and that's over, but that's not my call, it is some interesting reading on that forum, just rambling a few thoughts!!!!
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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2007, 07:08:14 PM »

Ted, it's complicated.  There are at least three different tangents involved with using the term 'organic'.

1) Keeping bees 'organically' to many means you do absolutely nothing to the bees (other than getting them onto small or natural cell).  If the bees can't make it, then they die out - natural selection.  I believe this is why you don't see this much in commercial beekeeping, because they just can't afford to lose their bees.

2)  Selling 'organic' honey - as far as I'm concerned, it can't be done.  Unless you can guarantee that no one within say a three mile radius from you is using any chemicals then you can't guarantee that the honey is organic

3) Some believe using the least toxic methods, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, etc. don't qualify as 'chemical treatments'.  Thus, they are keeping their bees organically.  The 1)'s will argue that until the cows come home  evil

We want to keep our bees alive.  They came from stock that had been treated.  Therefore we have treated all six of our hives with Miteaway II.  Next year we'll reevaluate that and try the powdered sugar method, then in the fall decide where to go from there.  I'm just hoping that out of those six hives we have bees left next spring!  shocked
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2007, 10:35:05 AM »

We want to keep our bees alive.  They came from stock that had been treated.  Therefore we have treated all six of our hives with Miteaway II.  Next year we'll reevaluate that and try the powdered sugar method, then in the fall decide where to go from there.  I'm just hoping that out of those six hives we have bees left next spring!  shocked

if you want to get away from treating bee's, do some removals that have been there for a few years or buy queens from stock that wasn't being treated, they are out there and they are growing........ you may lose some then again you might get lucky but that's the way it goes..... I myself will not buy queens from places that treat bee's, like I have said before that I will buy queens from Purvis Brothers Apiaries, I bought my first queens from them 3 years ago and they are still going plus I raised some from their queens and they are doing fine also, I also have my feral hives I removed and they do fine to..... if you want to not treat bee's you need to start with untreated bee's... why not re queen those hives you are treating... 
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2007, 11:14:18 AM »

For me I am not organic. Simply because I cannot tell you what my neighbors have used on their plants within a 2 mile area.

I do not put chemicals in my hives. I might do a powdered sugar treatment. But I haven't seen mites on my established hives for six months now. Part of that I was out of town for. But the recent inspections have shown no mites. Next year is going to be interesting if I can keep it that way.

I am looking at doing the SHB traps that tillie talked about. But that will keep Food Grade Mineral Oil in a container and not on my honey or my bees.

I do feed my bees. Honey mixed with some water if they need it. That happens rarely. I have one hive right now I am feeding because it was a queenless after swarm. If there are 100 bees I would be amazed. I have a caged queen in with them right now and a entrance jar with honey and water in it. They haven't even started building comb yet. I hope they make it. I may throw in a comb frame or two but I don't want to disrupt them to much right now..
Also if I throw in a comb frame they will end up with a wax moth issue that will be undesirable. So I will wait. and let them go in their own for a bit.

If they managed to make it. It will be at least 4 months before I can really do anything with them. By then I won't be feeding them and They will be building on a small cell setup. If is likely to be at least another two months after that before they are really sustainable. But they won't get any chemicals other than maybe a powdered sugar treatment and only if they really need it.

I do right now like the results I am seeing with small cell, top entrances, and screened bottom boards. No mites.

I am not trying to be organic. I am just lazy and see no reason to use chemicals on my hives. Chemicals cost money. So list me as the poor and lazy beekeeper.

Sincerely,
Brendhan


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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2007, 12:04:18 PM »

I do not put chemicals in my hives.

Not trying to stir the pot here, because I pretty much practice the same principals as you (less the SBB and top entrances, but thats probably more a geo difference than ideology).

BUT.... what is sugar and FGMO if they are not chemicals?  Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.  I see so many people that claim to be chemical free and yet put all kinds of stuff, like sugar,  that is highly processed with chemicals that are probably much worse than things like oxalic acid.

I don't put much faith in anything "organic" and have come to accept it mainly revolves around $$$.


Quote
3) Some believe using the least toxic methods, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, etc. don't qualify as 'chemical treatments'.  Thus, they are keeping their bees organically.  The 1)'s will argue that until the cows come home  evil

I assume these are organic milk producing cows grin  And they must be wrong.  Oxalic/Formic acid are organic acid by definition tongue

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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2007, 12:46:05 PM »

I do not put chemicals in my hives.

Not trying to stir the pot here, because I pretty much practice the same principals as you (less the SBB and top entrances, but thats probably more a geo difference than ideology).

BUT.... what is sugar and FGMO if they are not chemicals?  Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.  I see so many people that claim to be chemical free and yet put all kinds of stuff, like sugar,  that is highly processed with chemicals that are probably much worse than things like oxalic acid.

I don't put much faith in anything "organic" and have come to accept it mainly revolves around $$$.


Quote
3) Some believe using the least toxic methods, such as oxalic acid, formic acid, etc. don't qualify as 'chemical treatments'.  Thus, they are keeping their bees organically.  The 1)'s will argue that until the cows come home  evil

I assume these are organic milk producing cows grin  And they must be wrong.  Oxalic/Formic acid are organic acid by definition tongue



My opinion is that Oxalic/Formic acid are chemicals. They may be naturally occuring chemicals but they are chemicals. It even has an MSDS rating.

Powdered sugar can be a chemical also. But basically it is finely ground sugar with nothing added. It does not have an MSDS rating. I haven't used it in 6 months and then only on one hive.

The FGMO is a chemical. The difference is that it is kept in a container that does not get on my comb or bees. It has an MSDS rating. I know people who pour it on their frames and hives. That would not be chemical free in my opinion. I haven't started using them yet. So they are not a factor. If I decided to keep a chemical wasp trap in the yard it would be the same thing.

And as I said I couldn't be organic even if I wanted to because of the surrounding area.
However I am pretty comfortable listing it as chemical free and lazy. Cheesy

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2007, 01:32:36 PM »

You missed the point, I am not trying to critique your methods.
 
The point is, everything is a chemical.  You just can't arbitrarily draw your own line.  If you are doing anything other than just robbing honey from a colony, using the words "non-chemical" does nothing more than continue to propagate this misnomer.

But basically it is finely ground sugar with nothing added.


Unless your grinding your own, I think you will find anti-caking agents are added.  Not to mention all the chemical used in making the sugar in the first place. Wink
http://www.qemi.com/html/sugar.htm


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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2007, 01:55:25 PM »

BUT.... what is sugar and FGMO if they are not chemicals?  Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.  I see so many people that claim to be chemical free and yet put all kinds of stuff, like sugar,  that is highly processed with chemicals that are probably much worse than things like oxalic acid.




pure cane sugar has no man made chemicals in it, but sugar itself is a chemical just like us and the bee's are made of chemicals if you look at it thats way, nectar the bee's get from plants are chemicals, you can get a lab to test it Wink , so when talking chemicals I think the line should be drawn at man made, that would be what I call chemicals....

here's a sugar refining site with the info.. sugar is man made but its from a plant where nothing is added so people can look at it in different ways.....

http://www.amscl.org/SugarIndustry.pdf

 
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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2007, 02:10:29 PM »

so when talking chemicals I think the line should be drawn at man made, that would be what I call chemicals....

So you don't consider oxalic or formic acid  as chemicals since they are not man made.  I'm sure other would disagree...


See my point about using the term chemical tongue
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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2007, 02:43:48 PM »

All sorts of chemicals accor in nature. Everything has a chemical make up.

I understand Robo's point on putting chemicals in the hive. And I am to a certain extent splitting hairs. I do not believe a SHB trap in or on a hive used properly adds any chemicals to the hive. The powdered sugar he brought up a very good point on. It can have chemicals added to it. Mine for an anti caking agent has corn startch.

TwT is also correct everything has a chemical makeup even honey.

The idea behind organic as I understand it is that you are not adding anything to your hives to treat your bees. Also you bees are not coming in contact with any type of fertilizer or pesticide on the flowers they gather from.

I don't think feeding your bees sugar water would make them less organic.

I do think adding oxcylic acid would make them less organic because even though it occurs in nature you have to go through quite a process to get it. I also don't know if in that level of purity that it doesn't leave anything behind. I also don't know if it harmful to the bees or leaves any residue behind. Like I said earlier I am poor and lazy. I am also not an expert on organic. But the discussion is enlightning.

The powdered sugar treatment could be a split hair issue. Depending on where the powdered sugar came from. I have to be honest I don't buy it my wife did. I didn't even think about it until Robo's post. I personally doubt that powdered sugar leaves behind much long term residue or imbeds itself in the wax. However it is relatively cheap and avaliable at the local grocery stores. Thus the poor and lazy part of my beekeeping.

Since my wife is a bit of tree hugger. She tends to by things that are listed as chemical free or organic. So I am pretty comfortable when she buys powdered sugar. Even though I looked at the label for the first time today.

I mean we could split hairs in many ways. I use permacomb. It's plastic fully drawn comb. Others use plastic foundation. It isn't natural but I don't think it adds anything to the honey or wax.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2007, 05:00:35 PM »

So you don't consider oxalic or formic acid  as chemicals since they are not man made.  I'm sure other would disagree...


See my point about using the term chemical tongue


sure they are chemicals, and the reason people would be putting in hives would be treating the hive for mites (no other reason to do so), sugar is feeding, some could classify the reason using anything on hives??? dont know, we all treat hives but not all of treat for pest Wink , there I feel better now  tongue
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« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2007, 10:53:22 PM »

Personally, I dislike the term organic as it can be such different conotations even with PH.D type qualifications. 
I prefer the term natural beekeeping. 
That's the way I try to keep my bees, feeding as little as possilbe and using sugar shakes to varroa control.  As of yet, since getting my packages in May, I have not found any evidence of varroa.  And other than feeding sugar syrup and applying an occasional sugar shake (if needed) I will do nothing to save a hive.  I will feed, as I had to this year, because of a severe nectar dearth as I considered feeding in that senerio  a rational alternative rather than let bees that are otherwise exhibiting hygenic and survivor traits die needlessly.

I use foundationless frames so as not to introduce chemical contamination into my hives, it it gets there it is from outside sources and at a much lower concentration than if I used foundation and used various "chemical" treatments.
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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2007, 10:44:21 PM »

I just like honey from bees that haven't been treated.I do small cell so I don't have to treat I also have a hive four years that is large cell I haven't treated It is doing good also.
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