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Author Topic: Here we go again.  (Read 2369 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: June 12, 2007, 01:29:10 PM »

Many times in these forums the words "science", "scientific", "proof", "research" and others pop up. There are those of us that brush off anything related to these words just as one would with things that are related to the words "fable", "mythical", "magic". But then there are others that stand fast with anything associated with science.

Did you know that it was only about 40 years ago that the scientific community acknowledged the possibility that space rocks could indeed hit the earth. Even though many many years before that there was a farmer that saw a meteorite hit in his field. Yep everyone laughed at him.

Did you know it was only very recently the scientific community acknowledged the existence of other planets outside of our solar system. When I was a kid back in the sixties I figured if the sun was a star and it had planets, it just stood to reason that all those other stars out there probably had planets also. But science couldn't prove it, so it just wasn't so.

It can't be proven or disproven that bees existed in America Before a certain period in time, so it must mean there were no bees way back then. But who knows. All those who say no there wasn't, how will you feel when someone digs up the proof there was?

OK I'm rambling along here. This article is what got me started.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070612/cm_rcp/science_misused_from_the_peace;_ylt=Aue7QV8fSwDHLLasdK9HFA7MWM0F
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2007, 02:45:02 PM »

Poor Otzi was murdered, and your worried about a meteorite  Smiley
Personnally I think it was a vigalante killing, and Otzi was in a gang terrorizing the neighborhood.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2007, 05:06:11 PM »

And I thought most would have picked up on the climate change, A.K.A. Global warming, thing that was mentioned.

And Otzi wasn't murdered. He was wounded in battle, the apocalypse of the time, and just didn't make it home.
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2007, 11:16:15 PM »

Many times in these forums the words "science", "scientific", "proof", "research" and others pop up. There are those of us that brush off anything related to these words just as one would with things that are related to the words "fable", "mythical", "magic". But then there are others that stand fast with anything associated with science.

Did you know that it was only about 40 years ago that the scientific community acknowledged the possibility that space rocks could indeed hit the earth. Even though many many years before that there was a farmer that saw a meteorite hit in his field. Yep everyone laughed at him.

Not quite meteor theroy was first discussed in 1807.

Quote
Did you know it was only very recently the scientific community acknowledged the existence of other planets outside of our solar system. When I was a kid back in the sixties I figured if the sun was a star and it had planets, it just stood to reason that all those other stars out there probably had planets also. But science couldn't prove it, so it just wasn't so.

The scientific community basically said we can prove on paper there are other planets outside the solar system but we don't have the technology to prove it. Extrasolar planets were first discussed as a real possiblity in 1855. In 1992 the technology caught up with the math. Wolszczan and Frail published in Nature about a planet orbiting a pulsar. What is interesting in astronomy is the math usually is ahead of the technology. Black holes were proven on paper before we were able to actually see one in space.

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It can't be proven or disproven that bees existed in America Before a certain period in time, so it must mean there were no bees way back then. But who knows. All those who say no there wasn't, how will you feel when someone digs up the proof there was?

Like any good scientist. The evidence and the research is looked at with an open inquisitive mind. If someone finds a bee fossil , that is great. However as is very often true the discovery usually raises more questions than it answers. Science isn't always about finding the answers, it is about being able to ask better questions.

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I am reading a great book. http://www.amazon.com/Great-Influenza-deadliest-pandemic-history/dp/0143036491/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-3202938-2697623?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181702840&sr=1-1
In the book it discusses something known as germ theroy. Because in the early 1900's the acceptance of the idea that germs could cause disease was a hotly debated topic. Germs being responsible for disease was considered a wacko idea by some members of the scientific community. In this day and age we now have super germs because they evolved and developed a resistance to certain treatments.

Carbon dioxide and global warming. man where do they get these crazy notions.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2007, 11:38:21 PM »

I guess the discovery channel has miss-led me.
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2007, 11:25:37 PM »

>>I guess the discovery channel has miss-led me.

To much of Science (including Archeology) is pure speculation.  Trying to promote specific senerios as fact when they are only theory mis-leads a lot of people including scientists.

It's like the Darwinism VS Creationism.  who's right?  IMO They both are, but all the experts are to busy trying to prove the other side wrong to see the simularities and how they mesh.
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2007, 12:06:35 AM »

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To much of Science (including Archeology) is pure speculation.


Actually we can observe that under the label "documentary" a group of unscrupulous persons are selling their ideas. And the people swallows the ideas because are labelled with "science".

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Science isn't always about finding the answers, it is about being able to ask better questions.


The problem is that question and answers are in our minds. I always think about the ancient Greeks, during the bronze age, they could think in a rational way. And they could "see" the atoms without microscope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaximander
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 08:24:09 PM »

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To much of Science (including Archeology) is pure speculation.


Actually we can observe that under the label "documentary" a group of unscrupulous persons are selling their ideas. And the people swallows the ideas because are labelled with "science".

Quote
Science isn't always about finding the answers, it is about being able to ask better questions.


The problem is that question and answers are in our minds. I always think about the ancient Greeks, during the bronze age, they could think in a rational way. And they could "see" the atoms without microscope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaximander


Sometimes science is about making the best guess with the information at hand. This why science doesn't always give hard clear answers. And why the answers can change over time as more information becomes avaliable.

The Greeks had a very enlightended mind set for the day and age. The atom was the smallest point you could cut something down to. When you could cut it no more you had atoms. The term atomos means uncuttable. So yeah they could see their version of atoms  but today the version we use has new meaning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom
http://molaire1.club.fr/e_histoire.html

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2007, 01:56:15 PM »

The problem with putting in those links is that they get out dated. I can't go back to the thing I posted. But I guess we are just rambling around.

About scientist taking the best guess. Some of the guesses are so far out there. Black holes for instance.... Gravity so strong that light can't even escape. But according to something I watched after the whole of the universe gets sucked into the black holes and all those black holes become one huge black hole then the black whole will also go away. How you ask. Evaporation. That is correct. Even though light can't escape it seems that individual molecules can.  rolleyes Also, did you know there was some sort of geysers that spew out the top of the black holes  huh What? There is no gravity up there or what?

Folding space.  shocked Heard of that one? Seems we can not ever.... never ever.... go faster than the speed of light. So in order to travel great distances we have to fold space. Could you imagine a few billion space travelers from a few billion galaxies folding space all at the same time? It would look like a wadded up piece of paper.



If the space aliens now are traveling this way, don't you think we would notice that galaxy on Orions belt is a little closer these days? And how do you unfold it anyways?

About that light speed. Really  rolleyes You just go a little faster, and a little faster, and still a little faster until suddenly you hit that magic speed where you do not age as fast as everybody who is sitting still. And then go a little faster until you reach light speed. And then a little faster....What? Poof? You no longer exist? Just because a bunch of numbers say so I guess.

Did you hear the one about "String theory"? It has been debunked and replaced with the plane theory or something like that. (Soon we'll be back to particles I'm sure) And to go with this we need some 12 dimensions. These planes have waves in them and when these dimensional planes waves bump into each other we have a "BIG BANG" thing going on. A whole 'nother  universe in a whole 'nother dimension is formed. (Wonder where the first 12 came from.)




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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2007, 06:58:16 PM »

The problem with putting in those links is that they get out dated. I can't go back to the thing I posted. But I guess we are just rambling around.

About scientist taking the best guess. Some of the guesses are so far out there. Black holes for instance.... Gravity so strong that light can't even escape. But according to something I watched after the whole of the universe gets sucked into the black holes and all those black holes become one huge black hole then the black whole will also go away. How you ask. Evaporation. That is correct. Even though light can't escape it seems that individual molecules can.  rolleyes Also, did you know there was some sort of geysers that spew out the top of the black holes  huh What? There is no gravity up there or what?


Here is where the simple gets complicated. Black holes when you tell your kids about them are neat thing that acts like a giant vaccum cleaner that sucks in everything including light. Because the gravitation pull is so strong.  As adults and educated individuals things don't get to remain that simple. You catch a cold as a kid. As an adult you realize everytime you catch a cold it is a different version of the cold virus. It's never quite as simple as we would like it to be. Black Holes have a lot of theroy surronding them and probably will for years to come. It isn't like with today's technology we can travel to one go through it and see what is on the other side. Sometimes when talking about complicated matters the analogies that are used are something we are familar with. However in reality they don't do a very good job of describing the actual science. That is what is going to happen here.

Black Holes were discovered mathmatically before one was actually discoverd in space.
Karl Schwarzschild back in 1915 wrote the mathmatical formula that proved that black holes could exist. His work along with Einstiens help form the relative theory concept that is used today. Basically this guy had lots of brains when it came to math items.

So in 1915 we can't see black holes. The telescopes aren't that good. But on paper we have a mathmatical formula that says they can exist.

Now the other scientist come in and refine this formula and add more varibles to bring it to a more applied ideal. Scientist like Robert Oppenheimer and David Finkelstein are just two of many who worked on the refinement of the idea behind the existance of black holes.

Along the line another scientist John Wheeler made a speech and called them "black holes" and the term has stuck.

Now comes the real fun part. Black Holes are exactly that black. In space you cannot see them so they really cannot be discovered. However the forces they are alone can exert can be discovered. In 1971 a binary star system Cygnus X-1 showed all the signs of a black hole. it is still to far to travel there.

Now a little bit a black hole biology. Black Holes contain at their core a singularity. In basic math this is sometimes refered to as a point. That singularity has an infinite gavitational pull. Light which is a group of charged particles will bend and be drawn to this singularity.
Since the light is not coming toward you, nothing can be seen. Most black holes in space have a huge gravitation field. However it possible to have micro black holes. It is also possible that black holes in certain cases are not very stable and have a very short shelf life.

So here is where it gets even more complicated. A scientific group known as CERN is batting around the idea of creating micro black holes in a partical accelarator. This is a huge magnet scientist use to smash atoms and the protons, nuetrons and electrons that make up atoms. This goes into the heart of a mathmatical style known as quantum mechanics, which has nothing to do with fixing the engine of a car. Quantum mechanics has a real tough time dealing with gravity on a mathmatical level.

These scientist want make these very tiny black holes. They will get test all sorts of theroies and hypthosises with it. However they are somewhat relucant to create even on a microscopic level one of the most powerful vacumm cleaners in the universe. Cartoons on TV where made up of what would happen if something went wrong.

Now some of the scientist also point out that they would not be stable due to something known as Hawking Radiation. This is where the discussion of a black hole evaporating comes from. Stephen Hawking, brillant scientest who lives in a wheelchair with a voice auxilary unit, helped come up with this idea. that is why it is named after him. Not all black holes are the same. Like the word car which refers to a transportation device. Not all black holes are the same. Some black holes are like Mustangs and some are like Pintos.

Now this evaporation item is still being debated. And lets say there is a rate of evaporation. What is leaving Black Holes is radiation and it is escaping just before the event horizon. The event horizon is the point of no return. Now let me throw in another wrench in this. Black holes may not run at a constant level and may even turn down or off and then back on. In which case lots of stuff may escape. It is like putting your hand over the end of a shop vac several times really fast(think speed of light fast here). Also since the stablity of black holes is in debate. A black hole may evaporate very slowly think billions of years others may evaporate seconds after birth.

Let me throw neat analogy in this. Glass to elementary school kids is a solid (vs gas or liquid). However in college viscosity is taught and you learn glass is a liquid. It is a very dense viscous item but it is a liquid. This why black holes seem different from what you learned in elementary school to what you learned in college. You can view something known as the pitch drop experiment for fun. http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/pitchdrop/pitchdrop.shtml

Now just to really melt your mind, the one other thing that happens with a black hole is time changes. Literally the idea behind how a clock works doesn't quite apply once you have crossed the event horizon.


Quote
Folding space.  shocked Heard of that one? Seems we can not ever.... never ever.... go faster than the speed of light. So in order to travel great distances we have to fold space. Could you imagine a few billion space travelers from a few billion galaxies folding space all at the same time? It would look like a wadded up piece of paper.



If the space aliens now are traveling this way, don't you think we would notice that galaxy on Orions belt is a little closer these days? And how do you unfold it anyways?

About that light speed. Really  rolleyes You just go a little faster, and a little faster, and still a little faster until suddenly you hit that magic speed where you do not age as fast as everybody who is sitting still. And then go a little faster until you reach light speed. And then a little faster....What? Poof? You no longer exist? Just because a bunch of numbers say so I guess.

Ah yes folding space. One of favorite science fiction books (Dune) has space travel based on this idea. Einstien was pretty admant that nothing could go faster than the speed of light. He was a pretty bright guy so a lot of people respected his idea. However sometimes the best ideas come from challenging the accepted status quo. There are some scientist who say it may be possible to go faster. Understand for a while there it was thought you could not go faster than the speed of sound. Ideas change. Right now coming up with a good theroy that you have an engine powerful enough to make you go faster than the speed of light are lacking.  So a couple of smart guys got together and said why go faster? Why not just fold space. Einstein guessed space was shaped in a curve like a bowl. And items in the space travel like a very tiny ball rolling in the bowl. Well these brainy gus said instead of rolling in the bowl why not just go straight from one edge of the bowl to the other edge and skip all of the curve of the bowl. Right now it makes for great science fiction but in 1915 so did black holes.

Quote
Did you hear the one about "String theory"? It has been debunked and replaced with the plane theory or something like that. (Soon we'll be back to particles I'm sure) And to go with this we need some 12 dimensions. These planes have waves in them and when these dimensional planes waves bump into each other we have a "BIG BANG" thing going on. A whole 'nother  universe in a whole 'nother dimension is formed. (Wonder where the first 12 came from.)







Well string theroy hasn't been completly debunked but it isn't gaining a lot of fans among scientist and it is still a very early idea. It may go to the wayside it may get picked up. Ideas come and go this is one them. It will be interesting to see what happens.

The idea behind dimensional space (we live in three dimensional space) and the number of dimensions is an amazing setup. The math and ideas behind are incredible.

Maybe one of the reasons aliens from other worlds haven't bothered us yet is because we just aren't that interesting. Than again I wonder about my cats sometimes.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2007, 11:21:50 PM »

Ahhh the black hole. What the heck are you talking about? The black hole is just a ball of so much junk that the gravitational pull is so great that even light can't escape. The only way this thing would be turned off is if it exploded. Everything that is pulled into it only adds to the gravitational pull and mass of the thing. They are not that hard to understand.

Or are we talking about two different black holes?

The sun, our sun, will expand in a few billion years and engulf the earth. Then at some point in time it will collapse and become a black hole. Not some tiny speck called a singularity, but a bunch of junk compressed down to a dense mass with a strong gravitational pull that will pull in more stuff.


I watched "K-PAX" today. Kevin Spacey corrects Jeff Bridges about Einstien's light speed theory. He said that he said that you couldn't accelerate to light speed, not that you couldn't go light speed.
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2007, 11:52:04 PM »

Side note...

I had heard about glass being liquid and have seen experiments where it is bent under some weight placed on it over a period of time. I just had to wonder then, is metals also liquid? They can be bent under weight also.
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2007, 02:03:47 AM »

Ahhh the black hole. What the heck are you talking about? The black hole is just a ball of so much junk that the gravitational pull is so great that even light can't escape. The only way this thing would be turned off is if it exploded. Everything that is pulled into it only adds to the gravitational pull and mass of the thing. They are not that hard to understand.

Or are we talking about two different black holes?


Unfortunatly not. A black hole is not a ball of so much junk. At it's core it is a single point. A one dimensional object with a infinite gravitational pull. Nothing adds to it's gravitational pull because it already has a gravitational pull of infinity.

The life cycle of a black hole
Quote
The sun, our sun, will expand in a few billion years and engulf the earth. Then at some point in time it will collapse and become a black hole. Not some tiny speck called a singularity, but a bunch of junk compressed down to a dense mass with a strong gravitational pull that will pull in more stuff.


I watched "K-PAX" today. Kevin Spacey corrects Jeff Bridges about Einstien's light speed theory. He said that he said that you couldn't accelerate to light speed, not that you couldn't go light speed.

Our sun does not have enough mass to become a black hole when it dies. It won't even super nova.

K-PAX is a great movie but it is just that, a movie. The problem with accelerating to light speed is the fact that you would get squished before you made it to the halfway speed. Star Trek use to deal with this by the ship having something known as inertial dampners.

Quote
Side note...

I had heard about glass being liquid and have seen experiments where it is bent under some weight placed on it over a period of time. I just had to wonder then, is metals also liquid? They can be bent under weight also.

Mercury is a metal, it is a liquid at room temprature. Any metal on the periodic table of elements can be a liquid. The factors that decide that are the temprature and pressure.
Any single element has to have those properties. Nitrogen is a liquid within the temperatures of 63 K and 77.2 K (-346°F and -320.44°F). Below that Nitrogen is a solid.
Nitrogen is a non metal.

It is when you form compounds that those properties are lost. Dry ice which is frozen carbon dioxide , a compound composed of the elements carbon and oxygen, never obtains a liquid state because the two elements working together prevent that (certain scientist may split hairs here). Now just for fun water which is the combination of Hydrogen and Oxygen can obtain all three states gas, liquid and solid. Howeven when it is a solid it floats in the liquid state. Most items in a solid form are so dense they would sink.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2007, 10:53:40 AM »

Black holes don't exist;

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/06/black-holes-don.html

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2007/621/1?rss=1
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2007, 11:17:40 PM »


Ain't science grand. I didn't post anything about this in my previous post. I am kicking myself for not doing that now.

In 2005 a scientist, George Chapline, proposed that black holes aren't real. Basically they are black energy stars. Like string theroy his ideas don't have a lot of support but the media ran all over the place with them.

I figured I had kept things complicated enough without throwing that into the mix also. I am not saying he is wrong but right now his ideas are little mare than just that ideas. See no one has conclusive proof of the actual existance of Hawking radiation. Which is one of many steps that need more proof for Dr. Chaplline's ideas to gain ground. I am not saying he is wrong, but right now there is not enough evidence to support his conclusions. Maybe in ten years he will be right and everythong alse will be wrong but right now I am sticking  with the idea of a singularity of infinite gravitational pull.

Remember when black holes were simple.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Currently in Boston
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2007, 01:02:36 AM »

You surely know that Hawking stepped up in July 2004 and admitted he was wrong don't you? Yet every where I look they are still mentioning the 1974 theory he had.

Isn't there a better place to be than Boston?
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2007, 06:33:41 AM »

You surely know that Hawking stepped up in July 2004 and admitted he was wrong don't you? Yet every where I look they are still mentioning the 1974 theory he had.

Isn't there a better place to be than Boston?
No, I didn't know that. I knew he lost the bet on the no hair therom.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2007, 07:13:39 AM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/hawking_prog_summary.shtml

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6151
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