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Author Topic: dissapointed beekeeper!  (Read 3702 times)
newbee07
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« on: July 06, 2007, 08:28:49 AM »

I was just wanting some future outlooks or opinions on something that happened that made me really mad. I am in my first year of raising bees and selling honey hoping to grow into something big, and along comes someone close, real close up th road that has all the money in the world and buys thousands of dollars in equipment and over 1000 hives and is attempting to start his own business as well right on top of mine. He knows nothing about bees not even the slightest thing, But i'm worried that it will kill me out one way or the other, Does anyone have any opinions or similar happenings they have experienced before?
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2007, 08:31:57 AM »

isn't his market different than yours?
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2007, 08:53:36 AM »

Newbee07.  Awe, that is a bummer.  It is like the great big stores over running the little stores that once were.  I hope that things work out well for you.  You may indeed have a different niche in the market with your honey though.  Sometimes, people will still go to the "little guy" instead of the "giant" in the marketplace.  I know that I do many times.  Good luck.  Have a wonderful day, great life.  Cindi
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2007, 10:32:12 AM »

Newbee07, sometimes the big guys use chemicals because their operation is so large, and if you don't, you have an attractive product over your neighbors.

I know you are fuming over this, but perhaps something good can come out of this. Have you met this person? If not I would introduce myself and befriend this person, I wouldn't give any hard earned secrets away, but perhaps you two can co-exist to the benefit of the both of you. I am one to always look for the positive, and this is just my 2cents, hope I didn't offend. Things just may work out better than you realize. Please keep us posted, and good luck. Remember, competition can be a good thing.
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2007, 10:42:34 AM »

if you cant , join him. or he may be violating zoning w/ that many hives.
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2007, 11:57:08 AM »

i have a resurrected commercial operation not to far from me.  grandpa died and after a couple of years, the family decided to go back into business.  i suspect that my bees are competing for forage, but that's the way it goes.

my beekeeping neighbors are nice.  i don't know them well, but after i talked to them at the farmers market, they invited me to come by and take a look at some stuff they were going to sell, etc.  i hope to get to know them better, but other than the competition for by bees, they pose no problem for me.

you might try getting to know them.  if they are going into the honey business and you get enough surplus, maybe you can work a deal with them.  share advertising, etc.  if you are offering something they are not, they may be interested in helping you out.  your line could be the Organic Ltd, or something  smiley.

be creative!  in a free market the guy with the bestest ideas and the fastest implementation, gets the gold ring.
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2007, 12:11:55 PM »

In my opinion I would do like JP said, and befriend this guy. Who knows where  it may lead, it may very well be a good aliance. It won't be like all his hives will be in one spot, but rather spread out over many outyards.  I hope all works out and definetly keep us posted.  If the above does'nt work you could do it the old fashoned way and burn the newcomer out.(just kidding, so don't even think about it.) evil
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 12:12:04 PM »

Disappointing, but all is not lost:

There's still a demand for honey, so as long as there's demand, there's room for you both.

Perhaps his 1000 hives will provide swarms for you to collect for free, whereas he likely paid for all his bees.

He also has made a substantial financial investment, and will take much longer to turn a real profit, whereas your investment is much smaller and thus is more likely to be profitable sooner.

The larger investment also increases the risk of failure of his business. If his business fails, you may be able to buy his hives and equipment for a good price as he tries to recoup anything he can.
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Patrick
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2007, 12:18:08 PM »

I concur with JP. A fuzzy fearsome, but wise monster. Keep your friends close and your (in this case) competition closer.
Cheers
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 01:24:27 PM »

I was just wanting some future outlooks or opinions on something that happened that made me really mad. I am in my first year of raising bees and selling honey hoping to grow into something big, and along comes someone close, real close up th road that has all the money in the world and buys thousands of dollars in equipment and over 1000 hives and is attempting to start his own business as well right on top of mine. He knows nothing about bees not even the slightest thing, But i'm worried that it will kill me out one way or the other, Does anyone have any opinions or similar happenings they have experienced before?

The key here for you is patience and baby steps in learning the ins and out of beekeeping as a hobby, then move up to a sideline and then a biz. You can grow with your learning curve and $$$$. I suspect that the guy with the 1000 hives you mentioned will fail miserably if he knows nothing of the trade unless he employs professional beeks to help him along. I'd introduce myself to him and let it be known of your aspirations. Good luck and don't despair  grin
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newbee07
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 01:46:12 PM »

Well, i will talk to him because i see him about every day and have known him for about 9 years or longer. I assume he thinks you have a box with bees in it and the make you honey to jar up and seel. As we all know it's not like that. He has no idea i beleive what it just took on. So i may end up with some good equip. in storage for later use. He can't afford to hire pros. and besides there is none around here to work for someone else. I keep posted. thanks
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 01:57:02 PM »

I have found, that there is always enough for everyone!  His market may be different than yours...some people seek out the less commercial seller ( people like me )...I prefer to buy from the "small" farmer, even if it means paying just a bit more...I feel that SOMETIMES the quality of the product is better and more of a genuine consciousness went into the product,making it even better!

Don't waste your time worrying about the other guy, spend your efforts focusing on doing the best you can, first for the bees, second for you! Kiss
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2007, 03:27:56 PM »

Well, i will talk to him because i see him about every day and have known him for about 9 years or longer. I assume he thinks you have a box with bees in it and the make you honey to jar up and seel. As we all know it's not like that. He has no idea i beleive what it just took on. So i may end up with some good equip. in storage for later use. He can't afford to hire pros. and besides there is none around here to work for someone else. I keep posted. thanks

Are we talking about 1000+ hives of bees or new empty hives Huh I see this guy will crash and burn if he knows nothing about beekeeping . shocked Good luck to both of you and God Bless the Bees  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2007, 03:54:22 PM »

Like BeeHopper said, He may be headed for a "big" disappointment.
I have never heard of anyone starting anything at the top if they didn't have experence and didn't crash.
Who puts the chimney and roof up before the foundation and wall are erected.
Most part if he plans for any area to supply enough forage for that many hives then he knows less then nothing about the trade.
Sit back and watch, but carry on with your program as if he isn't there.
Time will tell, always does.
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2007, 04:17:32 PM »

Who puts the chimney and roof up before the foundation and wall are erected.

A good way of putting things into perspective, doak  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2007, 01:15:20 AM »

Thousand hives @ $100 =100,000  to big of a bite to start with.the guy wont make it if he is green.         THere Is A Saying About Beekeeping; If you want to end up with a million dollars keeping bees you had better start with two million. A thousand hives is more like a way of life. must be some stretching of the facts on his part. a hundred hives  would be good. they will end up yours anyway.remember this you dont get to chose to be a great beekeeper - the bees will chose for you  RDY-B
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newbee07
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2007, 10:54:41 PM »

i was asked by him if i could show him how the equipment worked and tell him a little about beekeeping. Lips Sealed grin was my response. I didn't learn for nothing to teach someone else thats trying to hurt me, even though i thinks he won't be able to.
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Holycow
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2007, 11:16:45 PM »

Go for quality over quantity. With fewer hives you can devote more time to making sure your final product is notably better than his. The free market does work. He can sell his stuff at higher volume but lower quality, and you can sell smaller amounts of higher quality product and still make a profit.
Good luck!
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2007, 11:34:17 PM »

i would think you would be looking for a friend, not an adversary.  you may not end up with a friend by helping him, but you surely will not have a friend by not helping him.  what do you have to lose?

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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2007, 04:43:11 PM »

i would think you would be looking for a friend, not an adversary.  you may not end up with a friend by helping him, but you surely will not have a friend by not helping him.  what do you have to lose?

If you would thoroughly know anything, teach it to others.
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The thing is that they've known each other/ have been friends for a long time now. IMO the guy saw an opritunity to make alot of money & thinks that he can do so buy doing something that newbeeo7 got him interested into in the first place. I call it greedy because the guy already has a couple of other things going that are doing well. He then jumps into this head first at the deep end & is going to try to start out on top and take as many customers away from newbee as well as all of the other smaller beekeepers in the area that he can. Also knowing all along that newbee07's intentions were/are to grow into the "BIG GUY" of that same area. Now here's the question,  is there anything wrong with that? No, but this guy cant expect to remain, or become friends with newbee07 or any other small beekeeper with the same goals as newbee in this area. I know I wouldnt help him learn how to keep bees the least bit. It would be a major "learn from your mistakes" move for him. $$$ = the root of all evil. This not only appys to this guys move by trying to take all the business (and IMO this is his intentions, because he doesnt know ANY THING about beekeeping, and therefore doesnt know that taking ALL of the business IS NOT possible) but would apply to my countermove as well. By me not helping him out so that I could make more money, and not loose any customers that I can help from loosing. Two can play the game   evil. I would think different if he started out with a few hives or even with like 20-30 and was interested in learning all that he can about bees, attending beekeeping meetings ect. instead of just being interested in making all the money that he can. I would help him out all that I could If that were the case because I would know that he is interested in bees & beekeeping first & making money second (just as I am) instead of the other way around.       
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2007, 05:23:03 PM »

Quote
$$$ = the root of all evil

it is the love of money that is the root of all evil.  an often made misquote.

newbee must do as he sees fit. i would suggest that if he can not beat the guy, he find a way to join him.  if the guy crashes and burns, a friend or mentor might be the first to benefit.  if the guy is successful, a friend or mentor might also find a way to benefit.  there does not seem to be any upside to petulance.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2007, 05:23:49 PM »

Newbee07:

I might have missed something, but how many hives do you have? I read it is your first season and I'd be really impressed if you had enough honey to sell the first season. I mention this because netting excess honey is not an easy thing to do in year one, except that for gifts for family and friends.

I can imagine the felling you have seeing such a large operation moving into your area, but if he knows nothing about bees, but has an bottomless checkbook - as mentioned before, chances are YOU will make out better as he sees his money flushing down the drain.

Honestly, unless you have dozens of hives as your first attempt, I'd keep the mindset of a backyard beekeper in mind and not look for a profit - your first and main concern is survivability of your colonies. Leaving them the most honey you can (considaring your location and length and brutality of Winter) is critical, anything after that is yours BUT trying to guess what they will need and what you should take SHOULD BE more of an after-thought in Spring, not a guess in the Fall before setting them up for Winter.

I can understand your passion and your concerns, but work and grow your hives as best you can, what goes on OUTSIDE of your beeyard is out of your hands and surely shouldn't eat you up at night - remember that all things out of your control should never worry you, having knowledge of his intent is worth more than worrying about his effect.

Chances are with a THOUSAND HIVES, he is unlikely to keep them all there permanently anyways, he is his own worse nightmare when it comes to food sources, unless they area you live in can sustain his hive count - and if it can sustain his, it can also sustain yours.

If his plans are to migrate the bees, then he won't effect you nearly as much as you suspect. So honestly, build your hives UPWARDS not OUTWARDS to keep strong viable hives as you closely watch him. Building OUT in numbers (increasing your hive count) sounds great and early in the second year it is really possible, but in year one (in my opinion) try building upwards with plenty of room for hive growth and honey storage as the hives build up and needs the extra space. Don't stack supers on any sooner than your bees call for them. Keep them capable of protecting their home, give them just enough room to grow and super up rather than letting them go to swarming.

Collecting your neighbors swarms are fine, but splitting your own this soon usually leaves one or both hives weaker this late into the Season. Of cource I've seen 7 and 8 pound swarms before, they sure sound capable of growing fast, but remember unless you have predrawn frames, your housed swarms will spend most of their energy drawing comb and trying to make a viable home before cold weather sets in. You play a great role in all this, learn the basics from watching bee-behaviour - our forum is wonderful in helping newbees spot the unique signs bees have, and bees react in very predictable ways - learn all you can here and apply it when looking at and in your hives.

Hope this has helped some. I would watch your neighbor, but surely wouldn't let it upset me - your job is to grow your beeyard in a logical and well paced way, he may effect food sources if he ever gets his yard in operation, but you need to adjust to his operation by observing your bees - not his. Good luck and keep us informed.
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2007, 07:22:47 AM »

i was asked by him if i could show him how the equipment worked and tell him a little about beekeeping. Lips Sealed grin was my response. I didn't learn for nothing to teach someone else thats trying to hurt me, even though i thinks he won't be able to.
If you're managing a small number of hives, I'd show him EXACTLY what you do! It won't help him. There's a huge difference in managing a 1000 hives versus a few. As a hobbyist, I can spend a lot of time on my hives: regular, frame-by-frame inspections; counting mites on sticky boards; powdered sugar treatments for mites, etc. It's impossible to apply that level of micro-management to 1000 hives. That many hives require a different beekeeping skill-set.
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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2007, 07:30:46 PM »


Now here's the question,  is there anything wrong with that? No, but this guy cant expect to remain, or become friends with newbee07 or any other small beekeeper with the same goals as newbee in this area. I know I wouldnt help him learn how to keep bees the least bit. It would be a major "learn from your mistakes" move for him. $$$ = the root of all evil.

If money is his motivation, surely he wouldn't expect you to teach him for free? Offer to serve as a consultant for $150/hour to help him out.
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2007, 09:35:19 AM »

Newbee707.  Read John's post carefully.  He has some very deep insight into how you should manage things, a wise man, that says wise things.  Listen, listen, learn and learn more.  I have been keeping bees now two years, I have taken courses upon courses, the most recent one, a five day course, that I attained a certificicate of "Beemaster".  Now, I do not consider myself even coming close to being a beemaster, so this certificate may apply to me well enough in about 5 years, but certainly not now.  I am still listening, learning, applying knowledge.  I consider myself to be still on the tip of that iceberg.  It takes years and years of working with bees, studying about bees to even begin to (in my own opinion) understand, and feel really comfortable that you will know your bees.

I would not worry one little bit about your neighbour.  With 1000 hives, he will I am positive, not have enough food for these girls to forage on without taking some of them elsewhere.  I would be very surprised if he had enough food actually.  Have a wonderful day, don't fret, as John said, especially don't worry about things that are out of your control.  That will bring you a very unhappy life.  Good luck with things, and the best of these days.  Cindi
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2007, 07:57:48 AM »

I talked to the guy yesterday and he said there are no tops on any of the hives and they are all exposed to the weather and open air some in the shop. He said it will be next spring if he does anything at all and he is just doing it for a hobby. He has no idea what he is doing or is getting into if he is planning to care for a lot. I told him he'd have to replace some foundations and he said "What is foundation?" I told him so he is fresh thats for sure. I have my request in on the equipment for me later though.
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2007, 08:07:13 AM »

I talked to the guy yesterday and he said there are no tops on any of the hives and they are all exposed to the weather and open air some in the shop. He said it will be next spring if he does anything at all and he is just doing it for a hobby. He has no idea what he is doing or is getting into if he is planning to care for a lot. I told him he'd have to replace some foundations and he said "What is foundation?" I told him so he is fresh thats for sure. I have my request in on the equipment for me later though.

What  shocked NO TOPS  huh  Something is amiss here. Again, does he have Bees or just woodenware.
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2007, 09:37:01 AM »

Uh...how many hives? 1000 isn't a hobby.  100 isn't a hobby. I'd argue that > 10 isn't a hobby. (I just extracted from 4 hives, and it didn't feel like a hobby).

Something doesn't add up.  I wouldn't worry about it, keep in touch with this guy.  If he's doing 1000 hives for a hobby, there well be some cheap woodenware on the market soon.  Maybe he bought it all but will start out slow.  If you are selling honey, just make sure you have a different market.

Rick
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2007, 02:12:49 PM »

no bees just has some he said that came along with the ride and of course some local bees thats robbing the hive of what s left.
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2007, 02:17:53 PM »

no bees just has some he said that came along with the ride and of course some local bees thats robbing the hive of what s left.


OK  grin 
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2007, 10:41:21 PM »

sounds like a false alarm- tell him to put the boxes out in the fields and the bees will fill them its that easy-the bees do all the work grin
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2007, 04:28:55 AM »

Something to think about also, he wouldnt know a disease or pest infestation (like mites) if the small amount of bees that he brought back with him had something. Or if something was in the wooden ware/ old foundation ect. especially without having tops on the hives. IDK but the whole thing just seems like an all around BAD situation to me.
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