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Author Topic: To wed or not  (Read 5843 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: June 26, 2007, 04:05:48 PM »

I know this has been debated here before but let's go at it again. Keep in mind I do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle. Here are two articles....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20070625/cm_usatoday/ourviewonsamesexmarriagewhenstatesbargayunionsdomesticcouplesloseperks;_ylt=An9Mg.vaUojubGCHrXgvyEnMWM0F
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20070625/cm_usatoday/opposingviewnoweddingnobenefits;_ylt=AqYNc8JetgATcf4BjH31.gHMWM0F

Here is what gets me about the last article:
Society gives "benefits" to marriage because marriage gives benefits to society.

And the benefits it is talking about
Only the union of a man and a woman can result in the natural reproduction that is essential literally to continue the human race.

Just because a man and woman get married does not mean they are going to have babies. So isn't that a lame excuse?

Then this question came to mind. What if two males wanted to wed. Since it is against the law for same sex marriages one of them gets a sex change operation. I mean it is the person one loves and not the sex. Right? The person is the soul mate no matter if it is man woman horse chicken or elephant. So two men can't legally marry but if one get changed then it is legal even though it is the same person. And still will be no kids involved.

Oh but wait. These people in a gay marriage can adopt. Holy Moly. An orphaned child could have a home. A whole family unit.

If the "having children" is the only benefit of a married couple then perhaps people shouldn't get married unless they are going to have kids. Means a sterile person could never get married.   
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 04:50:25 PM »

I wish they'd leave the M word out of it.  Marriage is a religious term applied to a set of legal agreements and rights.  Call them civil unions and leave marriage to religion.  That way everyone will be happy.  Well, kind of  evil rolleyes
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 08:44:46 AM »

"Marriage is a religious term.."

It use to be.. now it's a government term..  have to get a license.. follow the rules.  My religion beliefs allow me to have a dozen wives..  but the government says I can only have one.. if I follow my beliefs and have multiple wives.. the government puts me in jail. 

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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 09:03:29 AM »

this has been discussed many times, and as usual, same people discuss it.

gay marriage? NO, NEVER, if god wanted it, he'd create "John" from Adams rib now wouldn't he?
and like i've said it (if it's been disscused here, before) children usually grow up to be what their parents are (ackward expressions) so...a gay marriage and adoptance would be just #1 for society which is already in decline (in terms of reproducing) and as usual, it's the 1st world countries that would like to allow gays to adopt children. (in the 3rd world countryes gays are usually hanged or hide it).

Ken, that's not true! you can be married to a dozens of wives if you want to be, but it has to be done in your religios concept and there's no law forbiding having more than 1 wife in your belief with your way of marriage. officialy-in state concerns, you can only have 1
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 09:16:52 AM »

whenever you see this stuff come up, the first word that should come to mind is AGENDA. 

the gay community says they are 10% of the population.  more unbiased estimates are around 3%.  3% of the population engages in a kind of sex that most of us don't condone, but would say nothing about, if it were not shoved down our throat.

what is the purpose of shoving homosexuality down the throats of the straight community?  why would anyone want to make public their preferences in the bedroom? 

they are a part of a larger movement to change the society.  in their ideal society there would be no religion. there would be no marriage.  no restrictions on abortion and oddly....no death penalty.  no restrictions on drug use, open borders, international law would rule.  no military, or a much reduced military subject to international law and commanded by the un......
these are truly the one world, internationalists.  in order to achieve their goal, the social structure of the us must be destroyed.  that means destroying institution, especially religions, as quickly as  possible.  why not start with marriage?

to early...i'm rambling   smiley
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 09:56:17 AM »

There you go. Some of the first things to pop up is religion. There are many religions, which one is right? And then there are those that don't believe in a higher being. Why should they be bound by our beliefs? Just cause we say so?

gay marriage? NO, NEVER, if god wanted it, he'd create "John" from Adams rib now wouldn't he?

That does not apply to all religious beliefs and crtainly not to athiest. So it is a poor arguement.

and like i've said it (if it's been disscused here, before) children usually grow up to be what their parents are (ackward expressions) so...

The statement contradicts itself. Where did the gay people come from if their parents weren't gay?

a gay marriage and adoptance would be just #1 for society which is already in decline (in terms of reproducing) and as usual, it's the 1st world countries that would like to allow gays to adopt children. (in the 3rd world countryes gays are usually hanged or hide it).

You are talking about countries that are not free I guess. But you are saying it is better for a child to be warehoused away somewhere than to be adopted by a gay couple. The child would not necessarily become gay just as kids from straight families might not be straight.

whenever you see this stuff come up, the first word that should come to mind is AGENDA. 

the gay community says they are 10% of the population.  more unbiased estimates are around 3%.  3% of the population engages in a kind of sex that most of us don't condone, but would say nothing about, if it were not shoved down our throat.

what is the purpose of shoving homosexuality down the throats of the straight community?  why would anyone want to make public their preferences in the bedroom?

I'm not just talking about what goes on in the bedroom. I am talking marriage. Two people want to get married. What is wrong with that? 

they are a part of a larger movement to change the society.  in their ideal society there would be no religion. there would be no marriage.  no restrictions on abortion and oddly....no death penalty.  no restrictions on drug use, open borders, international law would rule.  no military, or a much reduced military subject to international law and commanded by the un......
these are truly the one world, internationalists.  in order to achieve their goal, the social structure of the us must be destroyed.  that means destroying institution, especially religions, as quickly as  possible.  why not start with marriage?

to early...i'm rambling   smiley


UMmmmm Yeah. OK. I guess........ So you want to shove your religion down my throat? I suppose you want me to buy a certain type of car that is a certain color just to please you?

No one is talking about destroying marriage. They are trying to get married. And marriage does not mean they are even going to have sex. I know because I have a cousin that can not have sex (that would be consistent with reproduction) but got married. So since normal sex was not an option for this person, what difference does it make who the other person was. (In this case it was a male/female marriage.)
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 10:33:10 AM »

Quote
I'm not just talking about what goes on in the bedroom. I am talking marriage. Two people want to get married. What is wrong with that? 


homosexual behavior is about what goes on in the bedroom.  it is a choice of sexual lifestyle. 

Quote
So you want to shove your religion down my throat? I suppose you want me to buy a certain type of car that is a certain color just to please you?


that doesn't even make sense.  i don't care what your religion is or what you drive.  your choice.

Quote
No one is talking about destroying marriage. They are trying to get married. And marriage does not mean they are even going to have sex. I know because I have a cousin that can not have sex (that would be consistent with reproduction) but got married. So since normal sex was not an option for this person, what difference does it make who the other person was. (In this case it was a male/female marriage.)


it's not about destroying marriage.  it's about destroying institutions.  we have many examples in history of institutions of society destroyed to change society.  the communists did away with all religious practices except those token churches that were under their control.  Hitler burned bibles and controlled the churches and the message.  radical Islam controls religion and practices in the countries they control.  in Saudi Arabia, you go to jail for possession of a bible.  china and Vietnam put priests, monks, and pastors in jail. 

the reason religion is attacked first, all religions,  is that faith is powerful.  when you have destroyed the institutions of faith, you can move on and destroy the other institutions of society.  next to faith, the strongest building block in our society is the family.  after that come laws and constitution.  welfare tells people that the family unit is not necessary because the government will care for you, and gays say family is whatever you want it to be.  the ACLU does a fine job of chipping away at laws and constitution. 

it's not complex when you break it down and realize that these movements don't happen in a vacuum.  they are organized and they have a purpose.

show me a country that has ditched it founding beliefs and is better off now than it was when it was founded.  i can't think of one off hand......

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 10:55:59 AM »

We will step away from religion then since you are not trying to cram it down my throat.

You mentioned "family". What is that exactly?

Man - woman - child?
Man - woman?
Person - spouse?
If a man and a woman make a family then why not a man and a man? Or a woman and a woman?

If it takes at least one child in there to make a family then don't let anyone marry unless they are going to have a baby. Or the homosexuals can adopt, thereby becoming a whole family unit. Who gives a rats patutie if anything goes on in the bedroom or not. (As I said. I do know people that are physically unable to have "normal" sex. No I never asked what they did in the bedroom)
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 11:17:19 AM »

this has been discussed many times, and as usual, same people discuss it.

I keep trying to get issues here that will draw in some others because it does seem to always be the same few. I guess others are not very brave.  grin
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 12:39:08 PM »

most people are apathetic.  if it does not directly impact them, who cares?

one more thing to think about.

if we are going to validate deviant sexual behavior for one group, why not others?  who will say that NAMBLA should not have their behavior supported?  who will say that incest is wrong between consenting partners?  why is one form of deviant sexual behavior ok, but another is not?

Main Entry: 2deviant
Function: noun
: something that deviates from a norm; especially : a person who differs markedly (as in intelligence, social adjustment, or sexual behavior) from what is considered normal for a group


Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 12:52:29 PM »

 "a person who differs markedly (as in intelligence, social adjustment, or sexual behavior) from what is considered normal for a group"

So you have a group of Homosexuals the heterosexual that walks up would be the deviant. 

"who will say that incest is wrong between consenting partners?  why is one form of deviant sexual behavior ok, but another is not?"

If it is all consenting adults.... what business is it of yours or mine?

Back to marriage. Imagine a scale like the blind justice statue has. On one side is a man and a woman that get married and move into a $50,000 home. On the other side of the scale is a same sex couple that marry and move into a $50,000 home. They eat, sleep, work, do the up keep on the home, pay taxes and all the other things that a married couple does. Why would the scale tilt one way or the other? Why wouldn't it remain equal?

A married couple is just that, a married couple. Please outline the difference because I just can't see it. (Other than the ability to reproduce. Any sex other than specifically for reproducing is for self gratification and is a form of deviant sex. The only reason it isn't considered deviant is because that would upset way too many people.)
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 03:38:30 PM »

i really didn'0t read everything, coz i don't have time, so i'll be short in just replying to jerrys replys to me.

ok...so to eliminate the religius content
if it was normal, 2 men or 2 women could reproduce, can they? (naturaly)

whoever says children do not look up to parents says it from two reasons. either he is dumb, or he just wants to discard a statement (no jerry i'm not saying your dumb, neither do i think so...)
you just CAN'T say that % of gay people wouldn't go up if more children were raised by gay parents.

no i don't think it's better to "warehouse" the child it's just that...gayness should be supressed, it should be a thing of which people should be ashamed of. now...1 or 2% or all population are gay, and they want to have parades etc etc, hummmm why don't we have them?
the whole society is heading towards some deep sh** with all the gay stuff, with all their beloved pets etc etc. we're just living too darn good that's the problem.

now..i don't know why gay people don't organise parades for abused or orpehend children if they are so aware of society problems. now...i know why orphened children are a problem, but i don't know why the fact that gay couples don't have the same rights is?


it's just sick....i mean, EVERY american movie has nowadays at least: 1 Black guy, a super-smart-funny-powerful woman and a gay. now...maybe not movie, but serials DO, most of times.
as if it was a rule.
some might not recognize this as a threat but...ok, it doesn't bother me that black people are equal, nor it ever has but...to say you're sorry in a way like this..it's just pathetic.
and yeah, since women got their vote, they've become smarter and better than all men.
to the main part...all of this serials are showing that being gay is ok, it's cool. in fact in last 5 years it's actually IN to be gay, and that..that is a biiiiiig problem.

i've gotten a little "off-shore" with some of the stuff, but...i hope you get the red tread.


Edit:
now i've read it.

Kathy, you really do make sense, with the whole "organised" thing. I would have never thought about it, just another Communist scam, a part of a bigger plan...


Jerry:If it is all consenting adults.... what business is it of yours or mine?
so...why are gay people making their choice our buisiness?
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 04:12:26 PM »

Now I really have to ask.... any who care to answer...... How has a homosexual person harmed you?


Other than not liking the idea that they are parading around. Perhaps they make such a big deal of it because the straights make a big deal about it.
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2007, 04:31:43 PM »

Now I really have to ask.... any who care to answer...... How has a homosexual person harmed you?

again i'm at the parade thing...they are affecting me, wether i like it or not, one parade too many, and i might think it's ok and normal...etc etc. but i'm not afraid that i'll turn gay EVER, BUT i do plan to have kids, and i don't want my kids think it's ok to be gay etc etc, coz they might turn gay with all thi gayness around us. if they succed in that, my existance was in vain. of course, this is hypothetical direct threat to me.

but this question, no matter how i try to turn it...harm..just sounds so physical, and you know they probably wouldn't do that, since it's against the law.

but you do know it jerry, that if they got everything they want to get and are so eager about it, they would do us harm, just like straights do to them (job interviews etc etc), pure revenge
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 05:18:10 PM »

Quote
Perhaps they make such a big deal of it because the straights make a big deal about it.


it's not about sex.  it's not about marriage.  it's about a small segment of society that wants to convince us that the abnormal is normal and that the structure of our society is wrong.  we, in our effort to be PC, do not call them on it.  they want the subject of homosexual relationships taught to young children in school.  they want validation of their sexual choice by way of marriage.  why?  why is it necessary that all of us accept a sexually deviant practice as normal?

i do not care what people do in their bedrooms.  i don't want homosexuals rounded up and put in jail.  i also do not want to see the subject taught to grade school children, or see them parading down the main street of town flaunting their choice of sexual practices.

societies exist in two different ways.  they self govern because the majority accepts a set of norms a lives by them, or...the government imposes laws and forces society to live by those laws.  the more you unravel the norms, the more government control you bring on society to keep it functioning.

and i ask again:  if you are going to accept one form or deviant behavior, why not others?
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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2007, 05:43:06 PM »

Simple fact :
It's discrimination.

You may not like or agree with the lifestyle. But the gay people and couples I know fall into the same categories most of the straight people I know do. Some people are made for each other. Some relationships don't last. Some are mellow. Some are militant.

I have done theater for too many years and known to many gay people to even care about their lifestyle. I don't give interracial couples a second look why bother a same sex couple. Homosexual behavior is about more than just what goes on in the bedroom, it is naive to think it simply about sex.

Calling marriage a religous item doesn't cut it. You get married by courts, ship's captain, or even a notary public. You don't get a civil union certificate you get a marriage license.

Those who are homosexual and live that lifestyle have had no ill effect on me. It's not a religous movement where you are trying to convert the masses.

I think Kinky Friedman said it best:
"I support gay marriage because I believe they have right to be just as miserable as the rest of us!"

That man should be governor of Texas.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2007, 06:14:52 PM »

I think Kinky Friedman said it best:
"I support gay marriage because I believe they have right to be just as miserable as the rest of us!"

this just might be true...as we all know it, the forbidden fruit is the sweetest!
but still i'm with Kathy, there's something more to this gay thing. why would anyone care if he can get married?
ok..you can care, but..that much??

marriage being a religious thing. i don't know how you have it in the US but here, people usually get married twice (in a way). there are civilian marriages done at local magistrat(courthouse?) and there's religious ceramony done and noted by the priest. so it's seperated completely.

Oh come on Brendhan, you can't compare interracial with same sex couple.
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2007, 06:18:38 PM »

you are talking about discrimination against a choice.  that's not the same as discrimination against a race.  i choose to smoke, yet every day i am discriminated against, even when my smoking does not impact others.  they simply don't like it.  i even pay and extra regressive tax for my choice.  maybe we could slap and extra tax on homosexuals and call it good?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2007, 06:25:20 PM »

Kathy, I agree with you completely, however, there is this little corner of me that wouldn't mind if there were civil unions.  Legal contracts between two people that bind them like marriage vows.  It seems to be working fine in Vermont and Connecticut (they even have to get divorced and pay through the nose like everyone else).  Here in MA we're in the middle of the firestorm of homosexual marriage, and the havoc it is wreaking is incredible!  I just wish it would all go away, but now that the cat is out of the bag I don't see that happening, especially here in liberal-land!  rolleyes
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2007, 06:29:05 PM »

Interacial marriage is also a choice.
Being vegan is a choice.
Being Methodist, Catholic, or Buddist is a choice.
It is still discrimination.

You smoking is to me an apple and oranges comparrison. You are resticted from smoking in areas where your smoking does have an impact on others.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2007, 06:37:45 PM »

I really doubt that homosexuality can be taught, and I don't believe it is a choice. There must be some gene that triggers homosexuality. There is no way anyone could teach me to be gay, no one could pay me to be gay. I wish my Doctors were all women, I would be more comfortable with that than having these male doctors poking and prodding.

I don't think they should teach anything about "sex", as in relationships, in schools. That should be done at home. But if they are going to teach this stuff and hand out condoms then why not teach about the homosexual way of life. Then perhaps there wouldn't be so much aggression against it. As a parent I really would not like to see my child become gay. But if it should happen then I except it. Just because we don't like something doesn't give us the right to deny someone else their happiness. (that is why I mentioned the make and color of the car thinggy earlier)

and i ask again:  if you are going to accept one form or deviant behavior, why not others?

And I say again. If it is consenting adults it is none of my business.... nor yours. And I say again, all sexual acts beyond the purpose of reproduction is deviant sex. Did you miss that?

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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2007, 06:42:41 PM »

And I say again. If it is consenting adults it is none of my business.... nor yours. And I say again, all sexual acts beyond the purpose of reproduction is deviant sex. Did you miss that?

So since my wife takes birth control. I guess that makes us a couple of deviants.  evil evil evil

I can live with that. Smiley

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2007, 07:08:05 PM »

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You smoking is to me an apple and oranges comparrison. You are resticted from smoking in areas where your smoking does have an impact on others.

i can't smoke 10 feet from the door of the airport...where the cars are idling spewing exhaust, but i can smoke 20 feet away because this changes what?  the fact that they can't smell my smoke? getting a whiff of tobacco smell does them no harm.  that exhaust is another matter.  maybe they should make the cars park out away from the door? and i pay extra taxes for social welfare programs why?

i don't have a problem with a legal contract between adults.  it's a good idea in any living situation.  a legal contract or civil union does not impact the institution of marriage.  companies and states can decided how they want to handle the issue.

as for sex outside procreation being deviant....i'll pass that on to my husband.  i have no intention of having more children and i do enjoy my sleep  smiley

understudy, following your line of thinking, we could not regulate any behavior in public or private because it would discriminate against someone.  people should just do what feels good and we shouldn't make it our business!
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2007, 08:01:09 PM »

understudy, following your line of thinking, we could not regulate any behavior in public or private because it would discriminate against someone.  people should just do what feels good and we shouldn't make it our business!

If you behavior has a disregard for other it needs to be looked at. You cannot drink and drive while intoxicated because you are likely to hurt someone else. You cannot smoke near other people because smoking affects others who have made a choice not to smoke.

I agree with you on the cars spewing hydrocarbons and other emissions. Something is being done about it(more needs to be done). But that becomes part of the global warming discussion. There are no more leaded gasolines. Cars now have Catalytic Conveters, Electric fuel injection. It doesn't put it to an end but if you compare the output of a 1957 chevy to a current car there is a definite decrease in the amount of emissions. And they are still trying to lower it.

Actually with my line of thinking people would be able to live their lives without hassle. The problem isn't the gays, jewish, vegans, or most others. It is those who view them as a problem. If you want to eat meat that is fine, if you don't that is fine. You should also be free of hassle from others for that choice. I don't have a problem with vegans. I have a problem with PETA telling me I can't eat meat. I don't have a problem with interacial couples, I have a problem with the KKK tresspassing on their property and burning crosses on their lawns and scaring people. I don't have a problem with someone being muslim. I do have a problem with fringe elements recuiting suicide bombers. I don't have a problem with homosexuals. I do have a problem with Fred Phelps and his members protesting at funerals.

If you want to drink and smoke in a way that it has no effect on others that is fine by me. You can have sex the same way I won't care. If you want get behind the wheel of a car on a major highway with a BAL of .08 and you have comprimise your reflexes. I have a problem. Now let me go one step further. There are factors in how I view things. If you are 95 years old and can't pass an eye exam and your arthritis prevents you from having a good grip on the wheel or you have some other health related issue, you should not be allowed to drive. I think driving through the swap market is a good thing. I know that doesn't make me popular with the senior population and living in SoFla that makes me enemy #1 . So do I discriminate? According to some I do. I prefer Brunettes to Blondes and Redheads are my fav. But I don't take that into how I hire someone for a job and I don't care if someone prefers to be gay to being hetro.

If someone wants to get married to someone of the same sex that is fine. I don't think that should be prevented. I don't think companies should be allowed to discriminate against same sex couples when it comes to benefits.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2007, 08:41:23 PM »

guess i would agree with you if i took the narrow view that this was just about gay marriage.  i think it's part of a larger picture.  i believe it is part of the agenda of the far left to undermine the social structure of the country.

guess also that i don't have anything else to add to the whole thing  smiley
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« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2007, 09:55:33 PM »

They can do what they want in their lives, it doesn't effect me.
I don't see how allowing a gay couple effects anyone else except them.

If that is what they need to keep them happy, then let them get married.
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2007, 06:09:55 AM »

guess i would agree with you if i took the narrow view that this was just about gay marriage.  i think it's part of a larger picture.  i believe it is part of the agenda of the far left to undermine the social structure of the country.
It's so scary that more don't see this... rolleyes
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2007, 07:45:32 AM »

guess i would agree with you if i took the narrow view that this was just about gay marriage.  i think it's part of a larger picture.  i believe it is part of the agenda of the far left to undermine the social structure of the country.
It's so scary that more don't see this... rolleyes
Because the right's vision is far more scary.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2007, 09:02:03 AM »

guess i would agree with you if i took the narrow view that this was just about gay marriage.  i think it's part of a larger picture.  i believe it is part of the agenda of the far left to undermine the social structure of the country.
It's so scary that more don't see this... rolleyes

The real scary part is that all these things are really engineered by Satan. Just leading up to the final days. Armageddon
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2007, 09:14:54 AM »

Understudy: While agreeing with much of what you have written, I do question your comment that denying homosexuals marriage is discrimination. Yes of course it is. So what? The government discriminates in countless ways. My son has to register for the draft, my daughter does not.  I pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes than some, and a smaller percentage than others. In 14 States a person with a felony on their record is barred for life from voting, so that a stupid act as a teenager prevents an otherwise responsible citizen from EVER casting a vote.  I could go on an on.

As for companies being required to cover "domestic partners", would it be "discrimination" if gays had to pay higher health insurance premiums because the statistics show the gay lifestyle to be a major health risk? (Some companies make smokers pay higher premiums for the same reasons).

What is it about 'marriage' that is so special to be coveted by gays? The legal aspects? As has already been posted, I don't see anything that couldn't be done with a legal contract. Tax benefits? In my tax-paying years, I've seen both a marriage benefit and a marriage penalty, so that's a crap shoot at best. Monogamy? No, from what I've read, fidelity between gay partners (especially males) is rare.

Even marriage is discriminatory, limited to just TWO. Why not three? Isn't itdiscriminatory to prevent a man from having multiple wives, or a woman to have multiple husbands?

Because of the above, I have to agree with kathyp that the push for 'gay marriage' appears to be more of an attack on a foundational institution, rather than just seeking legal and societal recognition.
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2007, 10:25:43 AM »

Understudy: While agreeing with much of what you have written, I do question your comment that denying homosexuals marriage is discrimination. Yes of course it is. So what? The government discriminates in countless ways. My son has to register for the draft, my daughter does not.  I pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes than some, and a smaller percentage than others. In 14 States a person with a felony on their record is barred for life from voting, so that a stupid act as a teenager prevents an otherwise responsible citizen from EVER casting a vote.  I could go on an on.

I am not understudy but here is my take. Just because there is discrimination of some things doesn't mean we have to keep discriminating on everything. (Still working on the black/white issue I think.) And if we all take the "Oh well" attitude, as the above statement implies, then we will never get the draft registration for women. Felons will never get to vote, and we will keep paying unconstitutional taxes. Just because a hundred sheep jump off a cliff doesn't make it right.

As for companies being required to cover "domestic partners", would it be "discrimination" if gays had to pay higher health insurance premiums because the statistics show the gay lifestyle to be a major health risk? (Some companies make smokers pay higher premiums for the same reasons).

How is their lifestyle a major risk factor? A monogamous "union" between a gay couple would be no more a risk than a monogamous union between heterosexuals. Its the ones that have multiple sex partners that are the risk, no matter what your orientation. 

What is it about 'marriage' that is so special to be coveted by gays? The legal aspects? As has already been posted, I don't see anything that couldn't be done with a legal contract. Tax benefits? In my tax-paying years, I've seen both a marriage benefit and a marriage penalty, so that's a crap shoot at best. Monogamy? No, from what I've read, fidelity between gay partners (especially males) is rare.


But you never knew gay couples yourself? And how many heteros do you know that has only had one sexual relation in there life time?

Even marriage is discriminatory, limited to just TWO. Why not three? Isn't itdiscriminatory to prevent a man from having multiple wives, or a woman to have multiple husbands?

 
Once again. This is something we must work to change. It is no concern of anyone how many wives I have.

Because of the above, I have to agree with kathyp that the push for 'gay marriage' appears to be more of an attack on a foundational institution, rather than just seeking legal and societal recognition.

I sure will be glad when some one explains what a "foundational institution" means. And how would two men being married be different from a man and a woman.
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2007, 11:30:36 AM »

jerrymac, thanks.  i wish you'd made this last post earlier because you pretty much made my point for me.
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2007, 01:18:52 PM »

guess i would agree with you if i took the narrow view that this was just about gay marriage.  i think it's part of a larger picture.  i believe it is part of the agenda of the far left to undermine the social structure of the country.
It's so scary that more don't see this... rolleyes
Because the right's vision is far more scary.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Oh, yes, the end of civilization as we know it is an excellent agenda for the left to push forward  rolleyes
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2007, 02:56:47 PM »

Understudy: While agreeing with much of what you have written, I do question your comment that denying homosexuals marriage is discrimination. Yes of course it is. So what? The government discriminates in countless ways. My son has to register for the draft, my daughter does not. 
I think women should have to register also.

Quote
I pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes than some, and a smaller percentage than others. In 14 States a person with a felony on their record is barred for life from voting, so that a stupid act as a teenager prevents an otherwise responsible citizen from EVER casting a vote.  I could go on an on.
I am not a big fan of the flat tax. I don't completely hate it either. But if you earn a million  dollars a year you should have to pay more taxes than someone who earns $14,000 a year. The felon issue is because voting is tied to a states right issue or at least it was until the supreme court stepped in on the gore v bush election. I do understand your point. As I said earlier I am not discrimination free either. However I do try to have some sound reasoning behind my points of view.

Quote
As for companies being required to cover "domestic partners", would it be "discrimination" if gays had to pay higher health insurance premiums because the statistics show the gay lifestyle to be a major health risk? (Some companies make smokers pay higher premiums for the same reasons).
Women pay less for auto insurance than men. How about single people in general pay more because the single lifestyle has more risk to it than the married lifestyle gay or straight? How about we discriminate against single persons when we make them work longer and harder to compensate because a person with a child has to deal with a sick child. There is a difference between discrimination and commpassion but it can be a very thin line and I have some very harsh opionins on that topic.

Quote
What is it about 'marriage' that is so special to be coveted by gays? The legal aspects? As has already been posted, I don't see anything that couldn't be done with a legal contract. Tax benefits? In my tax-paying years, I've seen both a marriage benefit and a marriage penalty, so that's a crap shoot at best. Monogamy? No, from what I've read, fidelity between gay partners (especially males) is rare.
What about marriage is so special? Ask my wife. I would have been perfectly happy to remain a living together couple for the rest of lives. As much as I joke about it one of the reasons(not the main one , we do love each other very much) we are married is because she as a domestic partner cannot make any decisions regarding my well being in a medical format if she were not married to me. Also she very much wanted to have the establishment of being my wife and all that comes with that. Gay male couples who have long term relationships from what I have known are pretty much like other straight couples. Boring. Most I know don't have wild lifestyles. And cheating whether gay or straight is still cheating to the partner. I don't think I agree with your statement about male gays.
Quote
Even marriage is discriminatory, limited to just TWO. Why not three? Isn't itdiscriminatory to prevent a man from having multiple wives, or a woman to have multiple husbands?
Why not? Outside of christian religous ideals many others cultures do that. However the uproar caused by allowing that would be bigger than the gay marriage debate. Mormons used to be that way. But in order to obtain statehood they had to agree to retract it. I am not saying they are the shinning example of poly relationships. But I would not see a problem with sound minded consenting adults doing what they want as long as everyone in the relationship was in agreement.

Quote
Because of the above, I have to agree with kathyp that the push for 'gay marriage' appears to be more of an attack on a foundational institution, rather than just seeking legal and societal recognition.
I disagree. I think people preceive it that way out of fear or ignorance. But you are entitled to view it whatever way you feel.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2007, 05:21:10 PM »

jerrymac, thanks.  i wish you'd made this last post earlier because you pretty much made my point for me.
What are you talking about? The last part where I say;

I sure will be glad when some one explains what a "foundational institution" means. And how would two men being married be different from a man and a woman.

I wanted some one to tell me their meaning of it because the "institution of marriage" that I have been in with three different women for 34 years would not be any different if I had male partners.... except for the six kids which I could have adopted. So I am wondering how in the world a gay couple is going to destroy this "institution" as you keep calling it.
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2007, 02:49:30 AM »

Every "Gay Person" I have ever met had been in a normal hetrosexual relationship prior to their discovery they were gay.  This tells me that they are capable of engaging in a hetrosexual relationship and have chosen not to.  I Have yet to meet a gay person who has not consciously made the choice to be that way.  I do not condone homosexuality, I view it as an act against nature.  It is hetrosexual relationships to procreate--homosexual behavior cannot.  Procreation is an act of nature.

As far as discrimination is concerned I have found that if you take each case individually it is impossible to be prejudice.  Prejudice comes from making generalities about things you dislike.
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« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2007, 09:13:21 AM »

In my opinion of course i am only 26 so, 

I dont have a problem with gays adopting, hey get the kids out of the homes and into a place where they can be loved.  Singles should be able to adopt (with restrictions) who says you need two adults.  Look at all the kids growing up with single parents. 

I dont have a problem with gays having marriage you know what if they want to go through with divorce and issues being married so be it,

I believe they should be able to get insurance for there partner etc.  They should have equal rights as anyone else. 

On religion i believe in God and he had a son that sacrificed his life for us, I believe there is a virgin mary, etc.  I am a catholic that hasnt practice for years.  I found out going through life that organize religion is a question mark.  I dont condone it, I also dont believe in the bible for it was created by man, how can i believe that what that man wrote is 100% true, maybe 75% then he added his own words not Gods
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« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2007, 09:33:46 AM »

but really, how many AMERICAN kids are in need of adoption?
you won't believe what i've read.
so...this couple wanted to adopt a kid, fortunatelly, you have to wait 5 years to get a local kid (Slovenian) because aparently we don't have issues or they're hiding them.
so, they got an offer you would have to refuse.
for crying out loud, they had to choose between 3 kid PACKAGES!!!!!!
a) two boys, one has AIDS
b) two boys, one is missing both of his arms
or c) three kids

imported from Ukraine. i mean...this is just...criminal, baby packages FFS. i still have trouble believeing this is true.

i know this is very OT, but...people mostly mention adopting when gay issues come up but...do you need adopting parents?
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« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2007, 11:00:34 AM »

Mici, we have a lot of kids that need adoption.  we support the drug and prostitution life of these women with welfare.  the more kids, the more money.  then the state ends up taking the kids because mommys boyfriend is at them, and now they are up for adoption.  who wants kids that are so damaged?

in all honesty, i don't have a problem with single or gay adoption because those kids will not turn out well if they are raised in foster care or institutions.  this would be a good reason to have civil unions. 

a fair number of americans that want undamaged kids, adopt overseas. 

of course, a better solution would be to stop supporting these women...but that would be unkind.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2007, 11:26:18 PM »

Just when you thought this one died.

I just had to wake it up

Perhaps there is a good reason to specify it as a marriage

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070724/ap_on_re_us/alimony_partnerships;_ylt=Atw2WbPldbNjZgLnpFvRT7XMWM0F

California marriage laws say alimony ends when a former spouse remarries, and Ron Garber thought that meant he was off the hook when he learned his ex-wife had registered her new relationship under the state's domestic partnership law.

An Orange County judge didn't see it that way.

The judge ruled that a registered partnership is cohabitation, not marriage, and that Garber must keep writing the checks, $1,250 a month, to his ex-wife, Melinda Kirkwood. Garber plans to appeal.
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« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2007, 12:34:38 AM »

rather than change marriage, maybe we could change alimony laws?
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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2007, 05:09:29 AM »

THIS IS A QUOTE FROM A SMART MAN,  I always thought he was a idiot until he said this below

"Marriage is a Institution and you have to be Committed, Sounds like a nut house to me"....

I have been married for almost 20 years (8/14) and counting to my first and only wife , if we was to ever split I am going to live by the quote above!!!!!

oh and the man that said this was Gene Simmons  grin Wink
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2007, 10:33:09 AM »

28 for me on 8/16.  smiley

i have developed a new respect for gene simmons.  who'd a thunk it?  grin
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2007, 11:29:39 AM »

rather than change marriage, maybe we could change alimony laws?

Some how I thought you would say that (ESP Wink )

But as wrong as that law is. (It was probably right back when the man had the job and the wife stayed bare foot and pregnant and the guy ran off)
Unjust
Unfair
Since it hasn't been changed I bet it never will be. At least not for a long time. 
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« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2007, 05:28:17 PM »

Very interesting debate.
In Spain, gay marriage is legal, or women-women. And they can adopt.
35 years ago, a gay, a "refined sensibility man" had a hair cut in the middle of the street by the police. And he could receive any "biscuit" by the fascist.

Actually there is not discrimination.
Couples that want to adopt, hetero or homo, have to pass a psicologic test.

Libertad, Igualdad y Solidaridad.
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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2007, 02:12:27 AM »

I celebrate 6 years this 10/31. I love my wife dearly but I would have been just as happy for us to continue cohabitating. The only problem is she can not pull the plug on me if I end up in the hospital.

That is one of the problems. If gay couple relationships are not recognized the partner has no say so in their partners affairs.

The problem is that people give this word "marriage" some sort of special place on a pedastal. Marriage is not just a religious setup. And that is the problem. People tell you to alter the kind of relationship gay couples can have. Saying that gay couples are not worthy of a marriage. Yet in Las Vegas you can be married by Elvis and have a klingon for you best man. What needs to happens is not to ammend the divorce laws, let them apply equally to all the couples, gay or straight, just as the marriage laws should.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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The status is not quo. The world is a mess and I just need to rule it. Dr. Horrible
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