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reinbeau
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2007, 06:43:46 AM »

We have an ADHD epidemic here, its the disease of the 21st century.

Its caused by parents that should have never been allowed to breed in the first place. It is endemic to parents of low IQ, no jobs and who live on welfare. The gene pool has been allowed to be run down thanks to financial support and lack of institutional support by our Government.

I have nothing against kids, I used to go to school with them. However out of the thousands I have known over the years, not one had ADHD and believe me, I have mixed with every clas sof people you can name.

Its a made up condition, diagnosed by equally incompetant doctors so they can prescribe drugs and make money.

IMO ADHD belongs with the easter bunny and father christmas.

In my country, the bahaviour that is called ADHD simply did not esixt ten years ago, nor has it ever existed in the past.

Gee, thanks, Mick, now when you have a clue about ADHD maybe you can enlighten us more.  rolleyes  Seriously!  How many more insults can you pack into a post?  So I'm on welfare, lower class and both my children and myself are dumb.   angry

And Allan, please provide the statistics on all of the deaths.  I do have them, and they aren't anything like what you've posted.  No one wants to give meds to their children, and many face the condemnation of people like you if they do choose to try them.  Used properly they are not a problem, and can help a child when the child truly needs it.  Abused, as anything else, they can be a problem.  But saying that Ritalin itself is a nasty drug ignores the problems that can occur with, for example, dexadrine, wellbutrin, Adderal, and all of the rest of the meds used to treat ADHD.  If you have personal experience and have researched the issue yourself, then you are entitled to your opinion, however, I don't think you really have researched it, and are expressing the current FUD that helps no one.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2007, 06:44:35 AM »

Dupe.
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2007, 10:40:21 AM »

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I can't believe anyone would defend Ritalin. It is a nasty drug which has resulted in the death of quite a few children. It is also known to be used by adults for kicks. To give a schedule two drug to kids is just insane.


Ritalin is a good drug.  it has side effects.  all drugs do.  when used appropriately, it is one of the best drugs for ADHD.  if some chose to abuse it, that is not the fault of the drug.

on the rest of your post, i agree.

reinbeau, i think i get the point of mick's post.  he'll correct me if i'm wrong.  smiley  ADHD has become the "disease of the month"  for a lot of people.  kind of like fibromyalgia.  ya, it exists, but every patient that comes through the door has it and wants to be treated RIGHT NOW for it.  now every parent or teacher that has an active kid want the diagnosis of ADHD and the meds.  it's "my son has ADHD that's why he's a little out of control....but he's taking drugs and he's much better".....(said with a pale, weak, long suffering, smile). 

+  i'm guessing that mick is not a fan of the fact that he's paying big taxes for the abuse of the socialized medical system??
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2007, 10:57:10 AM »

One of the theories of the genetics of ADHD are that we're risk takers.  We're the adventurers.  We are the ones who leave the farm (the hunters) and explore.  That's why there are a higher number of ADHD people in the US and yes, in Australia.  And as far as Oz goes, it was a penal colony, wasn't it?  The other thing is many, many people in prison are ADHD.  Risk taking and all can lead to crime, not just discovery.  The British sent their prisoners to Australia.  Is everyone there a criminal?  No, of course not.  But the genetic pool was heavily weighted with ADHD'rs, or so the theory goes.  Same here in the US (less the prisoner part).  The people who came here were the adventurous ones, the ones who were trying something new to make a better life.

I have very mixed emotions about all of this.  I don't consider it a disorder, I consider it a difference.  I understand why some thing it's the 'disease of the year' or whatever, but that broad brush makes it harder for those of us who truly do have the ADHD wiring.   I grew up not knowing anything about ADHD at all, all I knew was I was 'different', and in some cases, paid a high price for my self esteem because of that difference.  It took years before I actually liked myself.  Then to find out it's a 'disorder'.  So my being different is a 'disorder'.  I don't accept that.  But I did have to do whatever it took to help my son get past his issues, and we did it together.  There's nothing evil or wrong about that.

Calling Ritalin evil is inflammatory and makes those who have had successes with it feel bad for trying it.  Yes Ritalin can be abused, but so can lots of other things.  The death rate for Ritalin actually compares with that of young children overdosing on any number of common household remedies (colds, flu, aspirin and other pain killers).  The statistics regarding Ritalin are skewed by illegal use.  I could go on and on about this, I've got a whole cadre of people who, if they read this, would be nodding their heads in agreement.  It's hard to be a hunter in a farmer's world.  It's absolutely horrible to be a child nowadays dealing with all of this.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2007, 04:59:46 PM »

Many of these "modern" disorders seem to only exist in industrialized nations. My father once said, "you dont think anyone in the Sudan has agorophobia or bulemia, do you?" I see first hand what these dosorders can do if undiagnosed and untreated. Are they over diagnosed? yes.  Do they exist? clearly. I have said this before on this forum. We suffer from polarized thinking. It must be one way or the other, no in between. My opinion is these disorders do exist, they are growing in number, but ares still overdiagnosed. They are definately over prescribed as well. I feel sorry for parents who have children w/ these disorders and dont know which methodology of treatment to use. The older I get, the more questions i have and the fewer answers. Many children I think are bored by education today and parents dont instill the need to do well. As my mother says, "people strive for mediocrity." Mandatory Public education enabled our country to excell in the 20th century. I still believe in public education, notw/standing the fact it needs to be overhauled. Education is the great equalizer. Its about equality of opportunity, not achievement.
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2007, 05:58:05 PM »

Many of these "modern" disorders seem to only exist in industrialized nations. My father once said, "you dont think anyone in the Sudan has agorophobia or bulemia, do you?" I see first hand what these dosorders can do if undiagnosed and untreated. Are they over diagnosed? yes.  Do they exist? clearly. I have said this before on this forum. We suffer from polarized thinking. It must be one way or the other, no in between. My opinion is these disorders do exist, they are growing in number, but ares still overdiagnosed. They are definately over prescribed as well. I feel sorry for parents who have children w/ these disorders and dont know which methodology of treatment to use. The older I get, the more questions i have and the fewer answers. Many children I think are bored by education today and parents dont instill the need to do well. As my mother says, "people strive for mediocrity." Mandatory Public education enabled our country to excell in the 20th century. I still believe in public education, notw/standing the fact it needs to be overhauled. Education is the great equalizer. Its about equality of opportunity, not achievement.
I don't think any of these things are growing in number, it's being recognized now as a 'difference', and lord knows we can't have anyone different!  Your mother is right, I'll take it a bit further.  People insist on 'normal', anything different scares them somehow, anyone who has a slightly different point of view or behavior is somehow scary. 

As for education, it may be the great equalizer, but not everyone learns the same way.  Therein lies the rub.
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2007, 06:02:33 PM »

I thought normal was being different. If everybody was the same, that would not be normal, it would be different. And I think it would be something to fear. The being different part. Not the being different as being normal part, but the being normal as being different part. No! Wait! I confused myself I think... But then that is normal.... I think.
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2007, 06:24:27 PM »

i agree with most of you. although i'm not a parent, neither do i have ANY experience dealing with ADHD people or their drugs.
i'm with Reineabau, to the part, where people shouldn't push away ADHD affected people, and i think this is what she's trying to point out (if i'm not mistaking)

but, on the other hand, i couldn't agree with kathy more, i mean...people just lost the instinct about how to raise their children, and god forbid, if grandpa as much as lifts his hand over the child!!! OH NO, violence is not the way (yeah right,....)
now...we did everything we're supposed to do, didn't hit him, gave him everything he wanted etc etc...why does he behave in such manner? he has to be "sick" in some way. he surelly isn't spoiled or anything...

"violence" is THE ONLY WAY to educate youngsters, now, don't get me wrong, i don't think we should beat them to death, i just think that taking allowance and toys just ain't gonna cut it.
look at it this way, we are still merelly animals, when a growing animal makes a mistake, it usually dies, probably violently, if it survives, it learns a valuable lesson. now we, humans as "superior" should take advantage of being able to NOT kill anyone while educating them.


ok, what i've just written sounds BAD, real BAD, but maybe some of you understand the deeper meaning. basicly, we should go 100yrs back in parenting, it's just sickening what parents do/allow their children this days.
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2007, 09:32:54 PM »

I understand what you're saying, Mici, and I agree with you (and you did get some of what I was trying to say).  KathyP is absolutely correct, parenting seems to be on the track to being a lost art.  You can't use physical punishment openly or someone will turn you into DSS (Department of Social Services around here).  Nevermind the fact that so many are convinced that spanking a child is a violent act that will only teach more violence.  Bullfeathers.  A healthy whack when needed isn't going to harm a child.  Never in anger.  Never with anything in your hand.  But a smack on the bottom will definitely make them think twice.

But parenting and having or raising a child with ADHD are separate issues.  One does the other, but skills need to be learned to do it.

I ended up being the single mother of two teenage boys, and it was tough.  But both those boys knew that their little mother would whack them upside the head if they smart-mouthed her.  One time my eldest said F-you to me.  I slapped him right across the face.  He said he was going to call DSS on me because that was child abuse.  I told him go right ahead, they have a nice foster home waiting for him over in Brockton.  I'd pack his bags for him.  The look on his face was priceless.  He's never said that to me again.  evil

They've both turned out fine.  The eldest (26) works for the Pine Street Inn in Boston., and lives in there.  The youngest is home with us, still, he'll fledge when he's ready (hopefully soon!).  Having a man around the house again (my husband) has helped, also, because I'm not a man, I don't always understand what's going on with them.  Greg helps me quite a bit - and since he isn't at all ADHD he helps keep me on track!

People really don't like to think they're part of the animal world.  Well we are.  And children are little animals we need to teach.  We shouldn't be their friend, we shouldn't worry that they won't like us, we should teach them to respect us and our rules, because we're in charge, we are ultimately responsible.  Be the mama.  Be the papa.   Teach your children well.

And if your kids need help, find it for them, don't wait for the schools or anyone else to do it.  If they do, it'll fall far short of what's needed.  Only a good parent can guide their child, especially if their child has social issues such as those that come with ADHD.  It's hard, especially when so many are working against you.  But it can be done.
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2007, 09:43:41 PM »

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But parenting and having or raising a child with ADHD are separate issues.

guess i just wonder how many out of control kids are diagnosed with ADHD when what they really have is a discipline problem.  a pill is much easier than breaking up that "quality" time with real parenting.
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2007, 10:37:41 PM »


Ritalin is a good drug.  it has side effects.  all drugs do.  when used appropriately, it is one of the best drugs for ADHD.  if some chose to abuse it, that is not the fault of the drug.


I hate to say this and I could post a thousand links to back me on it. So I will say it this way. The heavens could open up the angel Gabriel could come down and personally deliver me a note from God saying Ritialin was a good drug and I wouldn't believe it. I believe Ritalin works with a very small minority of extreme ADHD cases. Otherwise it is over perscribed. Not only that it is a lifetime drug. You don't top taking Ritalin when you get older you take it for the rest of your life.

There are many other drugs out there for ADHD that work much better with less side effects and no need for a lifetime of drug taking. Also there are other ways to help deal with ADHD. Drugs alone is not a solution. It is a bandage on a tumor. Much like the other  diagnosis of the month "depression." Just taking prozac or xanax is not a way to deal with depression it is just a way to mask the issue. If you are not making changes in you lifestyle to also help you you just become a pill popper. If is the same way with most cases of ADHD.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2007, 11:02:08 PM »

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I believe Ritalin works with a very small minority of extreme ADHD cases. Otherwise it is over perscribed. Not only that it is a lifetime drug. You don't top taking Ritalin when you get older you take it for the rest of your life.


you are right about all but the above.  ritalin was actually one of the first and most effective drugs to be used to treat ADHD.  it had very few side effects if used as directed.  there are other drugs, but they tend to cost more and do not work better.  it is also not a "life time drug".  there is no reason you must take if for life if you don't want to.  many people use it for awhile and then don't.

for those kids who are truly ADHD, the total solution is not in a drug.  behavior modification must be part of the program.  that may include teaching the parents to parent.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2007, 04:36:21 AM »

I actually restrained myself quite a bit.

Just think about the name "Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder"

It translates as "ratbag" in my dictionary. Or "I will do what I like when I like" or "acting like this gets me what I want" etc.

Its up there with "oral Hygenist" tooth cleaner and "refuse recycling facilitator" garbage man.

Its a made up name to put a label on what is just bad behaviour. Label it, oooh parents feel better, invent a drug to treat it, oooh the doctor has something to do, drug companies make millions, kid is tranquilised and nothing is done to improve the cause of the behaviour.

Take the child out of the environment for a few weeks or months and I will guarantee you the behaviour will change. Doing this involves some self criticism of the parent, and thats too hard to take for a lot of people.

Then again, there is genuine psychotic behaviour in some kids that is labelled as ADHD and that label prevents proper diagnosis and treatment.

Far too many local doctors have become backyard psychiartrists and everthing is ADHD.

The whole thing is akin to fat people feeding 6 year olds adult sized meals and then saying "its in our genes" thats why we are morbidly obese.

This so called condition is the only "new" mental condition since Hyppocrates cut up rats and rejected "the stars" as the cause of medical conditions in 300bc

ADHD does not exist, but if it makes you feel better labelling a kid with it and zonking the poor bugger out with pills for the most important years of its life, I guess youre just helping yourself, not the child and that attitude is the root of the problem.

There has not been ONE conclusive study of behaviour to lead to this disease being created. Infact if you do a bit of research, it has the widest possible list of symptoms imaginable. From lack of concerntration to fidgeting to foregtfullness to interuupting a conversation or daydreaming. Its as though every possible behavioural trait of the Human psyche has been roped in to allow ADHD to be diagnosed and a lifetime of drug therapy commenced at the earliest age possible.

BTW this post is not directed at anyone in particular, its just an observation.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2007, 06:54:35 AM »

Quote
But parenting and having or raising a child with ADHD are separate issues.

guess i just wonder how many out of control kids are diagnosed with ADHD when what they really have is a discipline problem.  a pill is much easier than breaking up that "quality" time with real parenting.
Believe me, I do understand and agree with you on this.  But as I said, this 'overdiagnosis' thing is making it very hard for those of us who actually do live with ADHD.
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2007, 06:56:59 AM »


Ritalin is a good drug.  it has side effects.  all drugs do.  when used appropriately, it is one of the best drugs for ADHD.  if some chose to abuse it, that is not the fault of the drug.


I hate to say this and I could post a thousand links to back me on it. So I will say it this way. The heavens could open up the angel Gabriel could come down and personally deliver me a note from God saying Ritialin was a good drug and I wouldn't believe it. I believe Ritalin works with a very small minority of extreme ADHD cases.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote
Otherwise it is over perscribed.
I  can't argue with that.
Quote
Not only that it is a lifetime drug. You don't top taking Ritalin when you get older you take it for the rest of your life.
That is absolutely so wrong I can't believe you're persisting in saying it.  Ritalin is not a lifetime drug, whatever that is.

Quote
There are many other drugs out there for ADHD that work much better with less side effects and no need for a lifetime of drug taking. Also there are other ways to help deal with ADHD. Drugs alone is not a solution. It is a bandage on a tumor. Much like the other  diagnosis of the month "depression." Just taking prozac or xanax is not a way to deal with depression it is just a way to mask the issue. If you are not making changes in you lifestyle to also help you you just become a pill popper. If is the same way with most cases of ADHD.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
You are entitled to your opinions (although I don't see much education or research in the forming of them) but please stop spreading misinformation about something you obviously don't understand.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2007, 06:58:32 AM »

dupe again, sorry.
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2007, 07:04:29 PM »

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we have no clue what we are talking about, don't understand or have a lack of education on the subject. 

Personally, I would not give my children Ritalin even if you put a gun to my head.  Doing so is akin to telling them to go play on the Interstate for 10 minutes so I can get some rest.  That decision is based on research on the subject... and of course because kids shouldn't play on the interstate..
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2007, 08:26:38 PM »

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we have no clue what we are talking about, don't understand or have a lack of education on the subject. 

Personally, I would not give my children Ritalin even if you put a gun to my head.  Doing so is akin to telling them to go play on the Interstate for 10 minutes so I can get some rest.  That decision is based on research on the subject... and of course because kids shouldn't play on the interstate..
Yea, whatever.  You really have a clue on the subject.

I wonder how he's made it to 22 with such an idiot for a mother.

Sorry, Allen, but you really don't know what you're talking about.
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2007, 01:40:20 AM »

reinbeau:

Since I did not have hyperactivity. I did not take dexadrine. I did not go to a
therapist. I did not have friends who took ritalin. I must have no idea what I
am talking about. Oh wait all that stuff did happen to me. Maybe I do have a clue.

But you are right I am not a scientist or behavioral analyst. So you can take
my comments with a grain of salt. However, I back my opinion with a good
amount of knowledge and experience. So let's discuss that spreading
misinformation about something you obviously don't understand.



Ritalin is a Methylphenidate, a psuedo-amphetamine or if you prefer a stimulant.


Ritalin is currently manufactured in by Novartis.
The company used to be known as Ciba.

Ritalin is the grandchild of the stimulants caffeine and ephedrine. The effects
of caffeine and ephedrine are short term. There was a desire for a long term
stimulant. Thus Ritalin is born. There were other drugs also but we are
discussing Ritalin.


So how does Ritalin work?
Well that is the best part. They aren't sure. Discussions have ranged from
dopamine to serotonin. However there is no consensious as to how it works.




Since Ritalin is a stimulant that came out in the 1950's it was used to treat
disorders narcolepsy and chronic fatigue.
.Somewhere along the line it was
added to the list of items used to treat hyperkinetic syndrome(the grandfather
to ADHD).

Hyperkinectic syndrome gets a kick in the butt with the influenza outbreak of
1918-1919. What does influenza have to do a brain disorder? Remember in my
earlier post I linked to The Great Influenza.
If you survived the influenza pandemic you were likely to catch encephilitis.
Which does cause mental disorders. All of the sudden there are a bunch of people
exhibiting strange behavior. All sorts of treatments are tried. Then in the late
1930's a doctor finds Benzedrine(a stimulant) helps kids with behavior problems.
The race is on.

Now that a little of the history is behind us. Let's get back to the drug.

Ritalin:
The US consumes 85% of the Ritalin produced.
So if you agree with that it is over perscribed. That is a very scary situation.
Ritalin is a lifetime drug. That means for many once you start taking it you
have to for the rest of your life. About 80% of those who take it will take it into their teens.
60% will take it into adulthood.
Outside of the side effects which many medications have. Outside of the deaths caused. Which is not really that high a number. The overall effect is basically zombification. This is where my personal observations come in. I have seen people on and off the medication. They might as well have been extras in Dawn of the Dead.

Other medications as alternatives:
Adderall
Concerta
Dexadrine
Stratera
Catapres
Norpramin
Tofranil
Wellbutrin

Not that I am endorsing any of these.

Now I could continue to go on. But I think I have made my point.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2007, 06:32:38 AM »

No, you haven't made your point, because you are still spouting the same misinformed opinions. 

All of the other drugs you mention have serious side affects, also, especially those that have to build up in the system in order to work - you have to wean yourself off of them.  Those truly are 'lifetime drugs'. 

Zombification - nice made-up word.  You obviously know the wrong people, or those who weren't taking their medication correctly.  Have you ever seen someone overmedicated by any of the other drugs you mentioned?  Same thing.  But do continue to ignore that and vilify Ritalin.  It shows how uninformed you actually are

You've shown you don't have much understanding of the use of Ritalin and choose, instead, to spout off the typical anti-med, Peter Breggin malarkey.  You have chosen to insult me as a mother in that my son used Ritalin for four years (hardly a lifetime, Brendhan) and that use was highly successful.  That's what Ritalin is, it's a tool.  No one, and I do mean no one, has to stay on it forever, and if they do, then they're being mistreated.  You can be mistreated by while using any of the other medications you listed.  Find a better doctor if you're on Ritalin or anything else to treat ADHD for the rest of your life.

I am certainly not going to agree with you, so I believe we are done.
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