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Jerrymac
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« on: June 11, 2007, 12:14:20 PM »

And I don't have dentures.

This article was interesting enough I guess to read, and then I got the the last part of it. 

shocked shocked shocked Well I thought the stuff was bad for you and they inject it into the kids  shocked shocked shocked

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/ap_on_he_me/autism_vaccines;_ylt=AiUhmSWeXTi2q747CAsltxis0NUE
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 04:07:30 PM »

the question is about thimerosal.  thimerosal has been used in vaccines for around 70 years.

studies have been done.  no study that i know of has make the connection.  we do know the results of not vaccinating children.

IF there is a rise in autism, it may be that we should be looking at other things in addition to vaccines.  some of the questions to ask are not very PC.  for instance, how many of these women went back to work immediately after giving birth.  how many are older moms.  how many of these kids spend more time in daycare or preschool than in the care of their parents. how many of the kids were IVF.  how many of the parents were vegetarians.  how many kids labeled with some disorder simply need to have their backsides paddled?

there are a lot of things that go into the development of a child.  it's nice to slap a label of ADD or autistic on a child.  then we can look for some external thing to blame. 

ya, i'm on a rant again.  my 5 year old niece was just diagnosed as ADHD. all of the above apply to her parents except the IVF.  she is a beautiful, bright and willful child who has never heard the word NO.  now her parents wonder why she's out of control, and want her on meds.
i have a nephew that's been labeled autistic.  his mother is a wack job.  no one ever looked at the family dynamics to see why he acts the way he does.  it's easier to label the child.  it also takes pressure off the parents.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2007, 04:35:00 PM »

My thoughts were on the mercury they inject into kids. And I thought the stuff was really bad. Guess I was miss informed.
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 04:39:19 PM »

the mercury is in the thimerosal.  thimerosal is the preservative that has been used for years.  they are phasing it out.  don't know how many immunizations still use it.  i know it's in some of the animal shots i use.

and my rant was not directed at you.  just at these folks who are out to make a buck off the suffering of others, and the parents who are looking for someone to blame for what goes wrong.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 05:53:49 PM »

Kathy, do you think ADHD is a real problem?  Every case I have come across/seen appears to be from a lack of discipline and/or other 'parental' issues. 
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reinbeau
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 06:07:52 PM »

ADHD is only a problem in that we don't fit society's version of normal.  I am ADHD, aa 51 year old female hyperactive type.  What does that mean?  It means I have a shorter attention span than some, but I multitask well, I figit alot, but I'm thin and fit because I exercise, social issues were difficult when I was younger, but maturity tends to fix that.  It'll fix it provided you aren't labeled as 'different' and medicated instead of being taught (or just learning by trial an error) coping skills.  There's nothing 'disordered' about ADHD, it's a difference.  Something the school system doesn't like to deal with.  Nor do busy, self-involved parents.  rolleyes  I come from an ADHD family, my mother has always called us 'hornet-blossoms'  cheesy  There's four of us, only my sister isn't hyper/ADHD like the rest of us.

My diagnosis came after my youngest son was diagnosed.  To suit the school.  And it turned out the apple didn't fall far from the tree!  Our story is long and involved, but suffice it to say we did try Ritalin for him just in school so he could learn (he has a very high IQ, but couldn't learn to read the way they were teaching him.  He's fine now).  I actually tried the Ritalin and was not happy with it.  I was 38 at the time, and couldn't stand the quiet in my head.  He stopped taking it when he wanted to, around 13 years old or so - I left it totally up to him.

?As for the thimerosal and vaccinations causing autism, I think it's more the timing of the vaccinations.  We hammer the immune system of our little babies with way too much way too soon.  I doubt they'll ever admit anything like that (sorta like the chemical companies pussyfooting around the CCD issue).  For what it's worth, and I know it's hardly definitive, but I've seen the difference vaccination makes.  I have friends who had a lively, loving 15 month old son one day - they took him in for scheduled vaccinations, and, I kid you not, the next time I saw that child I couldn't believe the difference.  His eyes were dead.  He avoided all contact.  He lost his newly acquired verbal abilities.  It was incredibly sad.  The poor child is gone now, he drowned in the family swimming pool (he was a great swimmer, actually he was very athletic, he loved to play soccer, just don't try to communicate directly with him).  He had a seizure in the pool and died  Cry

KathyP isn't the only one who can rant.  evil
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 06:21:18 PM »

i think it is.  it seems to run in some families.  i have seen kids make a real about face when they are treated.  however, i think now it is a convenient diagnosis for many parents, teachers, and doctors.  

i think autism is real also.  sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between a child with behavior disorders, personality disorders, and just plain brattyness.

can't help but wonder if this tendency toward having children at an older age isn't a contributing factor.  my grandchildren flat wear me out.  there are women having children for the first time, at my age.  i can't imagine doing what i did with my kids when i was in my 20's, now.  maybe medicated kids are a result of frazzled grandparent age parents.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2007, 08:54:09 PM »

Back when I was a kid it was called Hyperactivity. Basically I wouldn't focus in class and would go off and do my own thing. This would of course irritate my teacher considerably.
The teacher recommended that I be examined. My doctor perscribed a drug known as Dexadrine. Basically it is speed. Speed in a active child has a reverse effect. And it can only be given to a child up until puberty. Because after that it has the normal effect. So basically it is a temporary drug. I am to this day grateful I was not given Ritalin. I still believe Ritalin is a nasty horrible drug that is perscribed way to much. I am sure it helps some people but they are a very small minority.

Something was done shortly after I was given Dexadrine. I was sent to a real psychologist.

Who did some extensive testing. My problem was I smart. Today they would say I wasn't being challenged enough. So the shrink and I would do a bunch of games that were designed to challenge me and also work on getting me to focus more. However the best thing that taught me to focus was a very intense karate course. The intense physical exertion would wear me out. That would cut down my energy levels. I still ended up taking the meds for another 4-5 years. But the karate course only lasted about a year until we moved to Puerto Rico. However some of the ideals stayed with me.

As I got older and discussed the issue with other kids of a similar diagnosis. I noticed a very similar thread. Smart kids and incompetent teachers. Now this isn't scientific but for a personal hypothoseis I am accepting of it. I watch some of the kids who were perscribed Ritalin. I still feel sad for them. It would literally take the light from their eyes. You could just see the life energy zapped in these kids.

So because nobody asked I am going to share with you my observations.:
1. ADHD is overdiagnoised.
2. Ritalin is over perscribed and nasty nasty nasty.
3. Most kids who are listed as ADHD are smart.
4. Most kids with ADHD are easily bored with the mindless rambling of adults.
5. If something interests a kid with ADHD you can't pry them away from it. And that is the trick.
6. It is the responsiblity of adults(parents and teachers) to stop trying to dumb their kids down. You are dealing with a smart energized person who does not like to be bored. You have to learn how to deal with that. Not the other way around.
7. ADHD(diagnoised) persons like experiences and hands on things. Get them with that then they will read the books. This is the opposite of most methods.

So basically instead of embracing smart kids we crush them and make them feel bad about themselves. We make them feel they are different in a bad way instead of in a good way. Being smart is tough enough. Being made to feel bad because you are smart is really bad.

Now the article was about autism which is not ADHD. Also the notion that the MMR vaccine is responsible for it.
http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/mark-geier-untrustworthy-autism.html
I think thimerosal has nothing to do with causing autism. Nor am I convinced the MMR combo is responsible for causing autism.

Autism and ADHD don't belong in the same group in my limited opinion. There is no "stimming" with ADHD. I realize that many group them together. Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD have been diagnoised together. However you can outgrow ADHD. You cannot outgrow Asperger's Syndrome. Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) works with autism not with ADHD. I am not convinced that autism has anything to do with parenting or neglectful teachers.

With that said. I do not have an answer or reason for the upswing in the cases of autism.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2007, 09:12:37 PM »

the only reason i put them in the same post is that i think both are over diagnosed.

i had a family member go astray for a bit and send her children to live with me.  this was 20 years ago and i had young kids of my own.

the youngest sent to me was a 5 year old girl.  she did not talk, did not make eye contact, did not like being messed with, threw a fit if you tried to get her to do anything other than sit on the floor rocking and sucking her fingers.  she was not autistic.  she was neglected and showed the signs of autism.  fortunately for her and for me, she had a wonderful teacher who worked with both of us and eventually we got her through her problems.

that teacher was one of the last of a kind.  i am not a fan of the public school system.  i know i'll offend someone here, but if i had young children now, i would never, never, put them in public school.  understudy has it right.  the goal of public school is to dumb down kids, and the goal of most teachers is to retire and get state benefits for life.  if a child is disabled, speaks a different language, or average, they are ok in public school.  if a child is bright and inquisitive, forget it.  they will not have their needs met.  as far a i can see, my tax dollars go to foster mediocrity.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2007, 09:46:38 PM »

Brendhan, you couldn't be more wrong about Ritalin.  It's not a zombie drug at all, it's fast acting and leaves your system very quickly.  It doesn't have to build up, and taken in clinical doses it isn't addictive whatsoever, more than can be said for dexadrine.  Since you have no experience with it, please don't spread rumors that it's'nasty, nasty, nasty, that just isn't true.

ADHD is something I've lived with and researched over the years.   

Quote
1. ADHD is overdiagnoised.
Actually some feel it's underdiagnosed
Quote
2. Ritalin is over perscribed and nasty nasty nasty.
Inflammatory and untrue.
Quote
3. Most kids who are listed as ADHD are smart.
Studies have shown many children diagnosed with ADHD are in the higher levels of intelligence, but it's not always true.
Quote
4. Most kids with ADHD are easily bored with the mindless rambling of adults.
Most adults with ADHD are bored with mindless ramblings, also.
Quote
5. If something interests a kid with ADHD you can't pry them away from it. And that is the trick.
It's called hyperfocus.  Unfortunately it isn't something easily invoked - or stopped!
Quote
6. It is the responsiblity of adults(parents and teachers) to stop trying to dumb their kids down. You are dealing with a smart energized person who does not like to be bored. You have to learn how to deal with that. Not the other way around.
Teachers don't have time to deal with anything out of the norm.  It's up to the parents to recognize the issues and make sure the child gets the proper education.  I spent months taking my boys to tutors for various issues, they went to a special private afterschool program to help them succeed in the classroom.
Quote
7. ADHD(diagnoised) persons like experiences and hands on things. Get them with that then they will read the books. This is the opposite of most method.
It depends on what catches their interest.  I've always loved books and learning, I had no issues in school (other than not staying in my seat quietly after I'd finished my work, I was bored!), however, my youngest had such a bad time with reading, etc. he absolutely hates books. 

ADHD is on the autistic curve, and that's not an opinion.  As far as 'bad parenting' goes, that's been disproven, it's not nurture, it's nature.  Now, if the parents are unable to cope with a different-minded child, then there can be issues. 

You can't 'outgrow' ADHD, you merely develop coping mechanisms.  You can't change brain function by 'outgrowing' it.  I'm still hyper, I still have attention issues, but I'm still a successful person, just one with many interests.  It's the only way I can live.

I hate the fact it's called a disorder.  It's a difference.  Find the book called Hunter in a Farmer's World by Thom Hartman, it has a good take on why some are ADHD and why many aren't, and to me it makes a lot of sense.  I am hyper aware of my surroundings, always noticing things, always on watch, the distraction part for me is I'm aware of so many things at once I lose track of what I'm supposed to focus on.  I could definitely be described as a hunter..

Driven to Distraction by Dr. Edward M. Hallowell has a forward in it written by a friend of mine.  Dr. Hallowell runs a highly acclaimed ADHD clinic here in Massachusetts.  He's a very successful doctor who has lived with ADHD his whole life.

I have been a participant in the newsgroup alt.support.attn-deficit for 17 years now and have conversed with both of the above gentlemen.   Both are successful, college educated ADHD'rs.   

One thing we do agree on is the hammering on these children to make them fit the norm, whether it's by handling them badly or medicating the hell out of them.  Believe me, you can be just as overmedicated on dexadrine as you can be on Ritalin, or Adderal, or any number of other meds they prescribed for ADHD.   I wish the school system could accommodate ADHD better, but I don't see that ever happening.

Here in Massachusetts it is illegal for the school or the teacher to 'diagnose', or even suggest the diagnosis.  That is mostly a good thing, but it can be a bad thing in a way.  If a parent is to totally unaware of issues with their child that they wouldn't even think of ADHD (or they don't want to believe their child 'suffers from ADHD) then the child can go quite awhile, or even forever, without getting any of the appropriate assistance he/she needs.  So they end up feeling their way along, as I did.  Some make it, some don't, and that's the shame.

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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2007, 09:56:35 PM »

Quote
As far as 'bad parenting' goes, that's been disproven, it's not nurture, it's nature.  Now, if the parents are unable to cope with a different-minded child, then there can be issues.

i don't disagree, but i think often ADHD is diagnosed because the parents don't parent, and the teacher can't.  everyone becomes frustrated by an out of control kid and ADHD is an easy scapegoat. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2007, 10:00:11 PM »

Quote
As far as 'bad parenting' goes, that's been disproven, it's not nurture, it's nature.  Now, if the parents are unable to cope with a different-minded child, then there can be issues.

i don't disagree, but i think often ADHD is diagnosed because the parents don't parent, and the teacher can't.  everyone becomes frustrated by an out of control kid and ADHD is an easy scapegoat. 
Unfortunately that is true.  Society today expects much of younger and younger children.  As far as parents not parenting, I can't argue with that, either.  It's sad that things have reached the point in this country that raising children is an afterthought, right after the jobs, houses, cars, etc. that so many feel are so important.
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2007, 10:00:37 PM »

Kiathyp,
I didn't think you were jumping on me, I could tell where you were coming from. I agree with everything everyone has said about ADHD. (The ones putting it down that is)

reinbeau, Will no one has diagnosed me as having ADHD I just imagine I have it. I had to force myself to read through most of these rants, but I had to stay with it because it is a subject that has been in my life. I know about the noise in the head, mine never shuts up. Constantly thinking about this or that and jumping around between subjects before a complete thought is finished. I thought it was normal until I started asking some folks, "What are you thinking about?" and the answer would be "nothing". "But you have to be thinking about something!". "Nope. The brain is quiet as a tomb".  huh  huh

That just made no sense to me. But I sure would hate it if the noise ever stopped. 

One of my kids was said to have ADHD and they wanted to start him on drugs. If I remember it correctly, I was driving trucks at that time and all of this happened when I was on the road. I got home and found out about it and that they put him on drugs and put a stop to that right quick.

Even at the age of two this son of mine could figure some one out real fast. We had baby sitters he liked, and then there were those ready to quit with in thirty minutes. They just couldn't control him and he knew it. Same with the teacher. Plus they wouldn't challenge him, they bored him.

But I also think this; Does it seem the number of ADHD cases has risen ever since they banned corporal punishment? Hummmmm. Let us drug the kids into submission now that we can't spank them.

Still can't believe they injected mercury into the kids.
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2007, 10:11:16 PM »

it's not mercury as you think of it in a thermometer.  it's a compound that breaks down into ethylmercury and is excreted.  it's been used for many years.

now, the kind of mercury you are thinking about used to be used as a medicine in ancient times.  people did tend to be poisoned by it  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2007, 10:12:04 PM »

The problem with my younger son was that he has an IQ of 149 and he was as that time going into the third grade unable to read a word.  I'd been trying to get the school to do something about it the whole previous year, but they weren't listening.  It wasn't until I threatened them with a lawyer that they did the CORE evaluation on him.  By that time I had him with a tutor and had taken him on my own to a neurologist.  My doctor (the neurologist) gave him a battery of tests and came up with the diagnosis of ADHD, and after researching it myself I realized it was a common thread through my family.  Because he really needed to focus in school I decided to try the meds for him.  It worked amazingly well.  He didn't, however, take any at home, on weekends or during the summer.  Because as far as I'm concerned he's perfectly normal, I could handle him (because he's so much like me!).  He agreed that the Ritalin helped him in school, when he no longer felt he needed it, he stopped.  No problem.  He learned to read (although since he had been so embarassed by being told to read to the class and couldn't, to this day he hates it) and caught up to his classmates, in some cases exceeded them.  He's 22 now and while he hasn't decided what he really wants to do with his life, he's healthy, smart, not in trouble (that's a frequent problem for ADHD kids, unfortunately), and still a hornet-blossom!  cheesy
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2007, 10:37:11 PM »

He's 22 now and while he hasn't decided what he really wants to do with his life, he's healthy, smart, not in trouble (that's a frequent problem for ADHD kids, unfortunately), and still a hornet-blossom!  cheesy

I never figured it out either. The longest job I could stick with was Driving trucks cross country. Always something different. Had to be flatbed. Reefers (refrigerated) was too repetitious. Different places, but basically the same thing all the time as far as loading and unloading.

There was just so much I could have been great at, just knew I would get bored with it. So I am poor and happy, so what. How does one measure success? Happiness or wealth? 
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2007, 11:02:43 PM »

Most people haven't figured out what to do with their life at 22. My situation was slightly different. I started living on my own at 16. I had an apartment and bills and a couple of jobs. Fear of living on the street gave me a great desire to focus. I realized that a career was going to be vital to eating. I just had to find something I liked to do. Because I didn't want to go to a job I hated everyday. The thing that is different for me is I tend to run several hobbies at once. A way to focus my energies. So I have a large group of extra  curricular activites.


Sincerely,
Brendhan
Currently in Raleigh, NC
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2007, 12:32:53 AM »

when my father booted my brother out the door.....my mother cried.  my father, ever the wise man, told her that "fear of starvation is the greatest motivator on earth".  and so it was...he lived in his car for a couple of weeks then decided to get it together.  six figures later, he has a nice life....smiley

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2007, 03:42:40 AM »

We have an ADHD epidemic here, its the disease of the 21st century.

Its caused by parents that should have never been allowed to breed in the first place. It is endemic to parents of low IQ, no jobs and who live on welfare. The gene pool has been allowed to be run down thanks to financial support and lack of institutional support by our Government.

I have nothing against kids, I used to go to school with them. However out of the thousands I have known over the years, not one had ADHD and believe me, I have mixed with every clas sof people you can name.

Its a made up condition, diagnosed by equally incompetant doctors so they can prescribe drugs and make money.

IMO ADHD belongs with the easter bunny and father christmas.

In my country, the bahaviour that is called ADHD simply did not esixt ten years ago, nor has it ever existed in the past.
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2007, 06:14:11 AM »

I can't believe anyone would defend Ritalin. It is a nasty drug which has resulted in the death of quite a few children. It is also known to be used by adults for kicks. To give a schedule two drug to kids is just insane.

Quote
Actually some feel it's underdiagnosed.

Probably bad parents and bad teachers.

The problem is that teachers can not deal with a class of 25-30 kids when some are different. The goal is to normalize them all to a set level, generally the level of the least intelligent child. If that means drugging the hyper active or gifted child down, then so be it. There is a reason why home schooling has increased significantly over the last 10 years.

In my opinion, bad parenting is not just about neglecting your child when you are together.. it is also those parents that buy the 3000sq ft house and have 2 new vehicles so that both *have* to work full time, as opposed to buying that much cheaper 1000 sq ft house and having 2 lesser vehicles so that 1 parent can remain at home.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2007, 06:43:46 AM »

We have an ADHD epidemic here, its the disease of the 21st century.

Its caused by parents that should have never been allowed to breed in the first place. It is endemic to parents of low IQ, no jobs and who live on welfare. The gene pool has been allowed to be run down thanks to financial support and lack of institutional support by our Government.

I have nothing against kids, I used to go to school with them. However out of the thousands I have known over the years, not one had ADHD and believe me, I have mixed with every clas sof people you can name.

Its a made up condition, diagnosed by equally incompetant doctors so they can prescribe drugs and make money.

IMO ADHD belongs with the easter bunny and father christmas.

In my country, the bahaviour that is called ADHD simply did not esixt ten years ago, nor has it ever existed in the past.

Gee, thanks, Mick, now when you have a clue about ADHD maybe you can enlighten us more.  rolleyes  Seriously!  How many more insults can you pack into a post?  So I'm on welfare, lower class and both my children and myself are dumb.   angry

And Allan, please provide the statistics on all of the deaths.  I do have them, and they aren't anything like what you've posted.  No one wants to give meds to their children, and many face the condemnation of people like you if they do choose to try them.  Used properly they are not a problem, and can help a child when the child truly needs it.  Abused, as anything else, they can be a problem.  But saying that Ritalin itself is a nasty drug ignores the problems that can occur with, for example, dexadrine, wellbutrin, Adderal, and all of the rest of the meds used to treat ADHD.  If you have personal experience and have researched the issue yourself, then you are entitled to your opinion, however, I don't think you really have researched it, and are expressing the current FUD that helps no one.
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2007, 06:44:35 AM »

Dupe.
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2007, 10:40:21 AM »

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I can't believe anyone would defend Ritalin. It is a nasty drug which has resulted in the death of quite a few children. It is also known to be used by adults for kicks. To give a schedule two drug to kids is just insane.


Ritalin is a good drug.  it has side effects.  all drugs do.  when used appropriately, it is one of the best drugs for ADHD.  if some chose to abuse it, that is not the fault of the drug.

on the rest of your post, i agree.

reinbeau, i think i get the point of mick's post.  he'll correct me if i'm wrong.  smiley  ADHD has become the "disease of the month"  for a lot of people.  kind of like fibromyalgia.  ya, it exists, but every patient that comes through the door has it and wants to be treated RIGHT NOW for it.  now every parent or teacher that has an active kid want the diagnosis of ADHD and the meds.  it's "my son has ADHD that's why he's a little out of control....but he's taking drugs and he's much better".....(said with a pale, weak, long suffering, smile). 

+  i'm guessing that mick is not a fan of the fact that he's paying big taxes for the abuse of the socialized medical system??
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2007, 10:57:10 AM »

One of the theories of the genetics of ADHD are that we're risk takers.  We're the adventurers.  We are the ones who leave the farm (the hunters) and explore.  That's why there are a higher number of ADHD people in the US and yes, in Australia.  And as far as Oz goes, it was a penal colony, wasn't it?  The other thing is many, many people in prison are ADHD.  Risk taking and all can lead to crime, not just discovery.  The British sent their prisoners to Australia.  Is everyone there a criminal?  No, of course not.  But the genetic pool was heavily weighted with ADHD'rs, or so the theory goes.  Same here in the US (less the prisoner part).  The people who came here were the adventurous ones, the ones who were trying something new to make a better life.

I have very mixed emotions about all of this.  I don't consider it a disorder, I consider it a difference.  I understand why some thing it's the 'disease of the year' or whatever, but that broad brush makes it harder for those of us who truly do have the ADHD wiring.   I grew up not knowing anything about ADHD at all, all I knew was I was 'different', and in some cases, paid a high price for my self esteem because of that difference.  It took years before I actually liked myself.  Then to find out it's a 'disorder'.  So my being different is a 'disorder'.  I don't accept that.  But I did have to do whatever it took to help my son get past his issues, and we did it together.  There's nothing evil or wrong about that.

Calling Ritalin evil is inflammatory and makes those who have had successes with it feel bad for trying it.  Yes Ritalin can be abused, but so can lots of other things.  The death rate for Ritalin actually compares with that of young children overdosing on any number of common household remedies (colds, flu, aspirin and other pain killers).  The statistics regarding Ritalin are skewed by illegal use.  I could go on and on about this, I've got a whole cadre of people who, if they read this, would be nodding their heads in agreement.  It's hard to be a hunter in a farmer's world.  It's absolutely horrible to be a child nowadays dealing with all of this.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2007, 04:59:46 PM »

Many of these "modern" disorders seem to only exist in industrialized nations. My father once said, "you dont think anyone in the Sudan has agorophobia or bulemia, do you?" I see first hand what these dosorders can do if undiagnosed and untreated. Are they over diagnosed? yes.  Do they exist? clearly. I have said this before on this forum. We suffer from polarized thinking. It must be one way or the other, no in between. My opinion is these disorders do exist, they are growing in number, but ares still overdiagnosed. They are definately over prescribed as well. I feel sorry for parents who have children w/ these disorders and dont know which methodology of treatment to use. The older I get, the more questions i have and the fewer answers. Many children I think are bored by education today and parents dont instill the need to do well. As my mother says, "people strive for mediocrity." Mandatory Public education enabled our country to excell in the 20th century. I still believe in public education, notw/standing the fact it needs to be overhauled. Education is the great equalizer. Its about equality of opportunity, not achievement.
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2007, 05:58:05 PM »

Many of these "modern" disorders seem to only exist in industrialized nations. My father once said, "you dont think anyone in the Sudan has agorophobia or bulemia, do you?" I see first hand what these dosorders can do if undiagnosed and untreated. Are they over diagnosed? yes.  Do they exist? clearly. I have said this before on this forum. We suffer from polarized thinking. It must be one way or the other, no in between. My opinion is these disorders do exist, they are growing in number, but ares still overdiagnosed. They are definately over prescribed as well. I feel sorry for parents who have children w/ these disorders and dont know which methodology of treatment to use. The older I get, the more questions i have and the fewer answers. Many children I think are bored by education today and parents dont instill the need to do well. As my mother says, "people strive for mediocrity." Mandatory Public education enabled our country to excell in the 20th century. I still believe in public education, notw/standing the fact it needs to be overhauled. Education is the great equalizer. Its about equality of opportunity, not achievement.
I don't think any of these things are growing in number, it's being recognized now as a 'difference', and lord knows we can't have anyone different!  Your mother is right, I'll take it a bit further.  People insist on 'normal', anything different scares them somehow, anyone who has a slightly different point of view or behavior is somehow scary. 

As for education, it may be the great equalizer, but not everyone learns the same way.  Therein lies the rub.
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2007, 06:02:33 PM »

I thought normal was being different. If everybody was the same, that would not be normal, it would be different. And I think it would be something to fear. The being different part. Not the being different as being normal part, but the being normal as being different part. No! Wait! I confused myself I think... But then that is normal.... I think.
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2007, 06:24:27 PM »

i agree with most of you. although i'm not a parent, neither do i have ANY experience dealing with ADHD people or their drugs.
i'm with Reineabau, to the part, where people shouldn't push away ADHD affected people, and i think this is what she's trying to point out (if i'm not mistaking)

but, on the other hand, i couldn't agree with kathy more, i mean...people just lost the instinct about how to raise their children, and god forbid, if grandpa as much as lifts his hand over the child!!! OH NO, violence is not the way (yeah right,....)
now...we did everything we're supposed to do, didn't hit him, gave him everything he wanted etc etc...why does he behave in such manner? he has to be "sick" in some way. he surelly isn't spoiled or anything...

"violence" is THE ONLY WAY to educate youngsters, now, don't get me wrong, i don't think we should beat them to death, i just think that taking allowance and toys just ain't gonna cut it.
look at it this way, we are still merelly animals, when a growing animal makes a mistake, it usually dies, probably violently, if it survives, it learns a valuable lesson. now we, humans as "superior" should take advantage of being able to NOT kill anyone while educating them.


ok, what i've just written sounds BAD, real BAD, but maybe some of you understand the deeper meaning. basicly, we should go 100yrs back in parenting, it's just sickening what parents do/allow their children this days.
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2007, 09:32:54 PM »

I understand what you're saying, Mici, and I agree with you (and you did get some of what I was trying to say).  KathyP is absolutely correct, parenting seems to be on the track to being a lost art.  You can't use physical punishment openly or someone will turn you into DSS (Department of Social Services around here).  Nevermind the fact that so many are convinced that spanking a child is a violent act that will only teach more violence.  Bullfeathers.  A healthy whack when needed isn't going to harm a child.  Never in anger.  Never with anything in your hand.  But a smack on the bottom will definitely make them think twice.

But parenting and having or raising a child with ADHD are separate issues.  One does the other, but skills need to be learned to do it.

I ended up being the single mother of two teenage boys, and it was tough.  But both those boys knew that their little mother would whack them upside the head if they smart-mouthed her.  One time my eldest said F-you to me.  I slapped him right across the face.  He said he was going to call DSS on me because that was child abuse.  I told him go right ahead, they have a nice foster home waiting for him over in Brockton.  I'd pack his bags for him.  The look on his face was priceless.  He's never said that to me again.  evil

They've both turned out fine.  The eldest (26) works for the Pine Street Inn in Boston., and lives in there.  The youngest is home with us, still, he'll fledge when he's ready (hopefully soon!).  Having a man around the house again (my husband) has helped, also, because I'm not a man, I don't always understand what's going on with them.  Greg helps me quite a bit - and since he isn't at all ADHD he helps keep me on track!

People really don't like to think they're part of the animal world.  Well we are.  And children are little animals we need to teach.  We shouldn't be their friend, we shouldn't worry that they won't like us, we should teach them to respect us and our rules, because we're in charge, we are ultimately responsible.  Be the mama.  Be the papa.   Teach your children well.

And if your kids need help, find it for them, don't wait for the schools or anyone else to do it.  If they do, it'll fall far short of what's needed.  Only a good parent can guide their child, especially if their child has social issues such as those that come with ADHD.  It's hard, especially when so many are working against you.  But it can be done.
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2007, 09:43:41 PM »

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But parenting and having or raising a child with ADHD are separate issues.

guess i just wonder how many out of control kids are diagnosed with ADHD when what they really have is a discipline problem.  a pill is much easier than breaking up that "quality" time with real parenting.
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2007, 10:37:41 PM »


Ritalin is a good drug.  it has side effects.  all drugs do.  when used appropriately, it is one of the best drugs for ADHD.  if some chose to abuse it, that is not the fault of the drug.


I hate to say this and I could post a thousand links to back me on it. So I will say it this way. The heavens could open up the angel Gabriel could come down and personally deliver me a note from God saying Ritialin was a good drug and I wouldn't believe it. I believe Ritalin works with a very small minority of extreme ADHD cases. Otherwise it is over perscribed. Not only that it is a lifetime drug. You don't top taking Ritalin when you get older you take it for the rest of your life.

There are many other drugs out there for ADHD that work much better with less side effects and no need for a lifetime of drug taking. Also there are other ways to help deal with ADHD. Drugs alone is not a solution. It is a bandage on a tumor. Much like the other  diagnosis of the month "depression." Just taking prozac or xanax is not a way to deal with depression it is just a way to mask the issue. If you are not making changes in you lifestyle to also help you you just become a pill popper. If is the same way with most cases of ADHD.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2007, 11:02:08 PM »

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I believe Ritalin works with a very small minority of extreme ADHD cases. Otherwise it is over perscribed. Not only that it is a lifetime drug. You don't top taking Ritalin when you get older you take it for the rest of your life.


you are right about all but the above.  ritalin was actually one of the first and most effective drugs to be used to treat ADHD.  it had very few side effects if used as directed.  there are other drugs, but they tend to cost more and do not work better.  it is also not a "life time drug".  there is no reason you must take if for life if you don't want to.  many people use it for awhile and then don't.

for those kids who are truly ADHD, the total solution is not in a drug.  behavior modification must be part of the program.  that may include teaching the parents to parent.
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2007, 04:36:21 AM »

I actually restrained myself quite a bit.

Just think about the name "Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder"

It translates as "ratbag" in my dictionary. Or "I will do what I like when I like" or "acting like this gets me what I want" etc.

Its up there with "oral Hygenist" tooth cleaner and "refuse recycling facilitator" garbage man.

Its a made up name to put a label on what is just bad behaviour. Label it, oooh parents feel better, invent a drug to treat it, oooh the doctor has something to do, drug companies make millions, kid is tranquilised and nothing is done to improve the cause of the behaviour.

Take the child out of the environment for a few weeks or months and I will guarantee you the behaviour will change. Doing this involves some self criticism of the parent, and thats too hard to take for a lot of people.

Then again, there is genuine psychotic behaviour in some kids that is labelled as ADHD and that label prevents proper diagnosis and treatment.

Far too many local doctors have become backyard psychiartrists and everthing is ADHD.

The whole thing is akin to fat people feeding 6 year olds adult sized meals and then saying "its in our genes" thats why we are morbidly obese.

This so called condition is the only "new" mental condition since Hyppocrates cut up rats and rejected "the stars" as the cause of medical conditions in 300bc

ADHD does not exist, but if it makes you feel better labelling a kid with it and zonking the poor bugger out with pills for the most important years of its life, I guess youre just helping yourself, not the child and that attitude is the root of the problem.

There has not been ONE conclusive study of behaviour to lead to this disease being created. Infact if you do a bit of research, it has the widest possible list of symptoms imaginable. From lack of concerntration to fidgeting to foregtfullness to interuupting a conversation or daydreaming. Its as though every possible behavioural trait of the Human psyche has been roped in to allow ADHD to be diagnosed and a lifetime of drug therapy commenced at the earliest age possible.

BTW this post is not directed at anyone in particular, its just an observation.
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2007, 06:54:35 AM »

Quote
But parenting and having or raising a child with ADHD are separate issues.

guess i just wonder how many out of control kids are diagnosed with ADHD when what they really have is a discipline problem.  a pill is much easier than breaking up that "quality" time with real parenting.
Believe me, I do understand and agree with you on this.  But as I said, this 'overdiagnosis' thing is making it very hard for those of us who actually do live with ADHD.
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2007, 06:56:59 AM »


Ritalin is a good drug.  it has side effects.  all drugs do.  when used appropriately, it is one of the best drugs for ADHD.  if some chose to abuse it, that is not the fault of the drug.


I hate to say this and I could post a thousand links to back me on it. So I will say it this way. The heavens could open up the angel Gabriel could come down and personally deliver me a note from God saying Ritialin was a good drug and I wouldn't believe it. I believe Ritalin works with a very small minority of extreme ADHD cases.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote
Otherwise it is over perscribed.
I  can't argue with that.
Quote
Not only that it is a lifetime drug. You don't top taking Ritalin when you get older you take it for the rest of your life.
That is absolutely so wrong I can't believe you're persisting in saying it.  Ritalin is not a lifetime drug, whatever that is.

Quote
There are many other drugs out there for ADHD that work much better with less side effects and no need for a lifetime of drug taking. Also there are other ways to help deal with ADHD. Drugs alone is not a solution. It is a bandage on a tumor. Much like the other  diagnosis of the month "depression." Just taking prozac or xanax is not a way to deal with depression it is just a way to mask the issue. If you are not making changes in you lifestyle to also help you you just become a pill popper. If is the same way with most cases of ADHD.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
You are entitled to your opinions (although I don't see much education or research in the forming of them) but please stop spreading misinformation about something you obviously don't understand.
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2007, 06:58:32 AM »

dupe again, sorry.
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2007, 07:04:29 PM »

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we have no clue what we are talking about, don't understand or have a lack of education on the subject. 

Personally, I would not give my children Ritalin even if you put a gun to my head.  Doing so is akin to telling them to go play on the Interstate for 10 minutes so I can get some rest.  That decision is based on research on the subject... and of course because kids shouldn't play on the interstate..
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2007, 08:26:38 PM »

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we have no clue what we are talking about, don't understand or have a lack of education on the subject. 

Personally, I would not give my children Ritalin even if you put a gun to my head.  Doing so is akin to telling them to go play on the Interstate for 10 minutes so I can get some rest.  That decision is based on research on the subject... and of course because kids shouldn't play on the interstate..
Yea, whatever.  You really have a clue on the subject.

I wonder how he's made it to 22 with such an idiot for a mother.

Sorry, Allen, but you really don't know what you're talking about.
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2007, 01:40:20 AM »

reinbeau:

Since I did not have hyperactivity. I did not take dexadrine. I did not go to a
therapist. I did not have friends who took ritalin. I must have no idea what I
am talking about. Oh wait all that stuff did happen to me. Maybe I do have a clue.

But you are right I am not a scientist or behavioral analyst. So you can take
my comments with a grain of salt. However, I back my opinion with a good
amount of knowledge and experience. So let's discuss that spreading
misinformation about something you obviously don't understand.



Ritalin is a Methylphenidate, a psuedo-amphetamine or if you prefer a stimulant.


Ritalin is currently manufactured in by Novartis.
The company used to be known as Ciba.

Ritalin is the grandchild of the stimulants caffeine and ephedrine. The effects
of caffeine and ephedrine are short term. There was a desire for a long term
stimulant. Thus Ritalin is born. There were other drugs also but we are
discussing Ritalin.


So how does Ritalin work?
Well that is the best part. They aren't sure. Discussions have ranged from
dopamine to serotonin. However there is no consensious as to how it works.




Since Ritalin is a stimulant that came out in the 1950's it was used to treat
disorders narcolepsy and chronic fatigue.
.Somewhere along the line it was
added to the list of items used to treat hyperkinetic syndrome(the grandfather
to ADHD).

Hyperkinectic syndrome gets a kick in the butt with the influenza outbreak of
1918-1919. What does influenza have to do a brain disorder? Remember in my
earlier post I linked to The Great Influenza.
If you survived the influenza pandemic you were likely to catch encephilitis.
Which does cause mental disorders. All of the sudden there are a bunch of people
exhibiting strange behavior. All sorts of treatments are tried. Then in the late
1930's a doctor finds Benzedrine(a stimulant) helps kids with behavior problems.
The race is on.

Now that a little of the history is behind us. Let's get back to the drug.

Ritalin:
The US consumes 85% of the Ritalin produced.
So if you agree with that it is over perscribed. That is a very scary situation.
Ritalin is a lifetime drug. That means for many once you start taking it you
have to for the rest of your life. About 80% of those who take it will take it into their teens.
60% will take it into adulthood.
Outside of the side effects which many medications have. Outside of the deaths caused. Which is not really that high a number. The overall effect is basically zombification. This is where my personal observations come in. I have seen people on and off the medication. They might as well have been extras in Dawn of the Dead.

Other medications as alternatives:
Adderall
Concerta
Dexadrine
Stratera
Catapres
Norpramin
Tofranil
Wellbutrin

Not that I am endorsing any of these.

Now I could continue to go on. But I think I have made my point.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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reinbeau
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2007, 06:32:38 AM »

No, you haven't made your point, because you are still spouting the same misinformed opinions. 

All of the other drugs you mention have serious side affects, also, especially those that have to build up in the system in order to work - you have to wean yourself off of them.  Those truly are 'lifetime drugs'. 

Zombification - nice made-up word.  You obviously know the wrong people, or those who weren't taking their medication correctly.  Have you ever seen someone overmedicated by any of the other drugs you mentioned?  Same thing.  But do continue to ignore that and vilify Ritalin.  It shows how uninformed you actually are

You've shown you don't have much understanding of the use of Ritalin and choose, instead, to spout off the typical anti-med, Peter Breggin malarkey.  You have chosen to insult me as a mother in that my son used Ritalin for four years (hardly a lifetime, Brendhan) and that use was highly successful.  That's what Ritalin is, it's a tool.  No one, and I do mean no one, has to stay on it forever, and if they do, then they're being mistreated.  You can be mistreated by while using any of the other medications you listed.  Find a better doctor if you're on Ritalin or anything else to treat ADHD for the rest of your life.

I am certainly not going to agree with you, so I believe we are done.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2007, 11:59:04 PM »

Topics so dear to my heart.

I use to take Ritalin when I was still working--Why, because I have narcolepsy.  I've found that Narcolepsy and ADHD are related like Hypoglycemia and Diabeties--opposites of each other.  All are prevelent in my family.  Both my parents had Diabeties and so do I.  2 of my brothers have been diagnosed as ADHD (They're both in their 50's now) and I have Narcolepsy.  When I no longer had to keep specific hours as a job required I no longer had a reason to take Ritalin, I don't miss it. 

Some disorders are physcosymatic (sp?) meaning they are developed as a coping mechanism from either internal or external stress.  Some disorders are the result of injury or PTS (post tramatic stress). 

I've recently been diagnosed as being Injury (or Primary) Alexithymic as a result of several serious closed head injuries when I was a police officer.  My narcolepsy is rated as physical injury in origin.

Alexithymia: greek; a=without, lexi=word, thymia=feelings.  In otherwords the inability to associate words and feelings.  Mr. Roboto.

From what I've seen the prevelence of all these "disorders" are a result of people trying to find out why people act the way they do and then giving a name to it.  Whether it is from PTS, physical injury, or coping mechanisms does not necessarily invalidate the finding.  It does require a different solution. 

Poor parenting can contribute significantly to physcosymatic and PTS causes of probelms.  But so does being the victim of child abuse or rape, physical abuse, and emotional trauma. 

The way I see it the more people have strived to communicate beyond normal necessities then they've had to invent new terms.  Sometimes those new terms provide an excuse for contiuned bad behavior.  Bad behavior begats more bad behavior and eventually you have a disfunctional society.  Why?  Maybe because we've created things that really don't exist.   
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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2007, 05:40:48 PM »

Quote
As far as 'bad parenting' goes, that's been disproven, it's not nurture, it's nature.  Now, if the parents are unable to cope with a different-minded child, then there can be issues.

i don't disagree, but i think often ADHD is diagnosed because the parents don't parent, and the teacher can't.  everyone becomes frustrated by an out of control kid and ADHD is an easy scapegoat. 
Unfortunately that is true.  Society today expects much of younger and younger children.  As far as parents not parenting, I can't argue with that, either.  It's sad that things have reached the point in this country that raising children is an afterthought, right after the jobs, houses, cars, etc. that so many feel are so important.

Well said.

Anyone every think that the needs of boys and girls are different.  I have noticed that more boys seem to be labeled ADHD.  Girls tend to do better in school as they seem to have longer attention spans, can sit still and focus.  More often boys either cannot or they develop these skills later in life.  Then when they are having issues, we think they are ADHD. 

What do we expect?  We put our children in preschool and public school and after school programs and expect them to sit for long periods of time with little activity.  Then when they get home, they sit in front of the TV. 

I really believe that much of the issues around ADHD are related to the laziness of our society and our lack of desire to realize that each child is different and adjust.  Some need lots of activity and others don't.  Some love to read books and others love to crash play cars.  It is our job as parents to see the interests and needs of our children and help to develop those.  Also to watch for issues and adjust to deal with them.

I have 4 children ages 7 and under.  My oldest has the classic signs of ADHD, but since we homeschool he is not forced into an specific method of learning.  In some cases while my wife is teaching or reading to him, he will walk around and act like he is not paying attention at all.  That is far from the case.  He catches all of it.  If you make him sit in one spot all the time and act like the perfect desk student, he is not learning.  My 5 year old daughter is just the opposite.

My 3 year old daughter is what we call "extremely strong willed".   Most parents just give up on a child like this and that child rules the house and their life.  We refuse to do this.  We are the parents!  We have actively tried many solutions for the last 1.5 years.  We just won't give up and must believe that staying the course will have the best outcome.  It has.   We would normally be considered strict parents but we have found that strict is not nearly strict enough for her.  Do you know that saying, "give and inch and they will take a mile", for her is more like "give a millimeter and she will take 10 miles".  So for her, we cannot miss a beat and we have to 100% unified in this.  She excels when the boundaries/rules are very clearly defined and enforced.  What has occured in the last 2 months is like metamorphasis.  She has emerged as the sweetest and most thoughtful of our children.  It is just unbelievable.  Any the reality is that is only took about 5-7 days to notice the difference.  Seems like a good deal to me.  A terrible week for years of joy.....

So I have rambled.... but to conclude, I really think that many of the issues we deal with today have much more to do with the parents laziness or alternate priorities than with the child. 

Unfortunately, I believe that for much of our society, children are treated like an accessory.
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Bennettoid
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« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2007, 03:20:08 PM »

My wife spoils, I discipline. I also spend every moment I can with them.

My children are better adjusted and behaved then other kids in "progressive" families, and my kids know it. They tend to recognize and point out problems in other households.

Of course, we're not perfect, but we try.
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