Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
April 19, 2014, 06:39:13 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Narrow frame and small cell beekeeping  (Read 1053 times)
ccar2000
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 69

Location: Littlerock, CA


« on: April 19, 2011, 10:29:17 PM »

Is a narrow frame (11 frame) brood nest configuration beneficial if not using small cell foundation?
Logged

It is what it is
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 04:16:39 AM »

I don't know what happened to my earlier post... but here goes again...

Charles Koover was a big proponent of narrow frames and he was not a small cell beekeeper:

    "With so many beginners wanting to know about eleven deep frames in a 10 frame deep Langstroth brood chamber I will have to go into further details. But first this letter from Anchorage, Alaska of all places. For that is as far north as you can keep bees. He writes, I'm a new beekeeper with one season's experience with two hives. A good friend is in the same boat he had read one of your articles on "Squeezing" the bees and tried one of his hives that way result a hive full of bees and honey. This year we will have eight hives with eleven frames in the brood chamber."

    "If you, too, want to have eleven frames in the brood chamber do this. In assembling your frames besides nails use glue. It' a permanent deal anyway. Be sure your frames are the type with grooved top and bottom bars. After assembling the frames, plane down the end bars on each side so that they are the same width as the top bar. Now drive in the staples. As I mentioned last month make them by cutting paper clips in half. They cost but little and don't split the wood. Drive the staples into the wood until they stick out one quarter inch. The staples should be all on one side. This prevents you from turning the frame around in the brood nest. It's a bad practice and it upsets the arrangement of the brood nest. It is being done, but it leads to chilling of brood and it disturbs the laying cycle of the queen. I am talking to beginners, but even old timers should not commit this bad practice. As for the foundation, if you use molded plastic foundation just snap it into the frame and you are ready to go."-- Charles Koover,Bee Culture, April 1979, From the West Column.

But the big advantage to me is that when doing natural cell size, the cells are smaller.  The bees seem to take the spacing as a cue as to whether it's the core of the broodnest, some drone or some honey storage.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 07:34:50 PM »

From the link, you mention that:
"More frames of brood can be covered with bees to keep them warm as the layer of bees is only one bee deep instead of two."

So as the frame width gets smaller, it's the beespace between frames that shrinks?  Or does the comb itself get narrower?  Or do both the comb and the beespace between frames get smaller?

If only one layer of bees will fit between frames, it sounds like all the shrinkage is coming from beespace.  If the frame is smaller by 1/8 " and the beespace started at 3/8"  then it must have gone to 1/4" to prevent 2 layers of bees.  That would mean that the comb thickness would be unchanged.  I understand that neither comb nor beespace is uniform so maybe this is hard to determine.
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2011, 08:19:57 AM »

>So as the frame width gets smaller, it's the beespace between frames that shrinks?  Or does the comb itself get narrower?  Or do both the comb and the beespace between frames get smaller?

Both.

>If only one layer of bees will fit between frames, it sounds like all the shrinkage is coming from beespace.  If the frame is smaller by 1/8 " and the beespace started at 3/8"  then it must have gone to 1/4" to prevent 2 layers of bees.  That would mean that the comb thickness would be unchanged.  I understand that neither comb nor beespace is uniform so maybe this is hard to determine.

According to Baudoux the comb thickness with smaller cells (he measured it down to 4.7mm as natural) drops by 2mm which would mean the beespace drops by 1mm

Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
VolunteerK9
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1647

Location: Southeast Tennessee

Gamecock fan in UT land.


« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2011, 08:38:58 AM »

As usual, my education comes the hard way. I recently switched over some of my brood chambers from 10 to 9 thinking that inspections would/should be easier. Within a couple of days of doing so, MB made a post about 10 to 9 actually having the reverse effect that I was seeking. The bees have drawn the comb out thicker in the brood chamber, and with the spacers, there is no way to slide a frame either way to avoid rolling bees. Soooooo, 10 to 9 in the brood chamber=bad idea in particular if you are pulling frames with swarm cells for splits. I think the bees are drawing longer cells for better heat efficiency like was mentioned earlier. No more 10-9 for me and Ill probably try the 10 to 11 next year when the combs are empty as small/natural cell is my goal.

Still learning

K9
Logged
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2011, 09:04:51 AM »

Michael, you list reduced drone comb as an advantage of narrow frames.  But can you really reduce drones?  You have pointed out that the use of foundation to reduce drone comb just results in cross comb etc since the bees will find a way to make drones if that's what they need.

What we are most concerned about in this regard is that using narrow frames would push the drone comb out of the brood nest and onto the honeycomb , messing up our attempts to make cut comb honey.
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2011, 09:09:16 AM »

>Michael, you list reduced drone comb as an advantage of narrow frames.  But can you really reduce drones?

Drone comb, yes.  Drones, no.  I don't really worry about it, but it is one effect you will observe.  They typically space natural comb about 35mm when they intend to build drones and 32mm when it's just workers and 38mm when it's going to be honey storage.  So having the spacing small leads them to believe it's worker comb instead of drone comb.

>  You have pointed out that the use of foundation to reduce drone comb just results in cross comb etc since the bees will find a way to make drones if that's what they need.

They always raise the same amount of drones, yes, but often do so on less drone comb by raising more generations of them.

>What we are most concerned about in this regard is that using narrow frames would push the drone comb out of the brood nest and onto the honeycomb , messing up our attempts to make cut comb honey.

Space the two outside frames a little further (35mm instead of 32mm or 1 3/8" instead of 1 1/4") and they will make sure they make some drone comb. Smiley
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.176 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page Today at 05:00:33 AM
anything