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Author Topic: beehive temp  (Read 16927 times)
Acebird
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« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2011, 10:40:50 AM »

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when warmed by body heat alone.

What are you suggesting Mr. Finski?  Should we climb inside our hives to keep the bees warm?  I don't think anyone is suggesting that bees don't give off heat.  But the analogy between a bee and a human is ridiculous.  Ten people sitting in a room eating dinner put out 6000 btu's.  That is more than enough to raise the temp in that room 40 degrees.  Your thermostat on the wall will react to that and shut off your heating system.

In a hive enormous amounts of energy are dissipated when the bee breath changes state by condensing on the cover running down the walls and out the hive.  All those btu's absorbed by the water went out the hive without a chance of raising the temperature  in the hive.  Anything that went out as ventilation is also gone.  Have you seen any water droplets on your ceiling in the dining room and running down your walls when you have people over for dinner?

Where is the corelation here?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2011, 10:41:14 AM »

Finski, the Laws of Physics are on your side if that is any consolation  Smiley
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T Beek
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« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2011, 10:43:16 AM »

Finski; You're proving my point for me brother, I'm not a honeybee, neither are you grin  

As for me, when I get cold I just put more wood on the fire Wink  I don't think bees have a close option.

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T Beek
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« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2011, 10:46:03 AM »

Finski, the Laws of Physics are on your side if that is any consolation  Smiley

Hmmmmm, which law of physics do you refer to?

thomas
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2011, 10:58:03 AM »

In a hive enormous amounts of energy are dissipated when the bee breath changes state by condensing on the cover running down the walls and out the hive.  All those btu's absorbed by the water went out the hive without a chance of raising the temperature  in the hive.  
Speaking of the laws of physics, you've got that reversed.  When the "bee breath" changes from gas to liquid and condenses, it gives up heat to the surface it condenses on.  Condensation heats the hive surfaces. 
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BlueBee
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« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2011, 11:04:37 AM »

AceBird, you need a new calculator. 

Although we Americans are getting super sized, 10 of us in a room eating dinner does not put out 6000 btu/hour.   With a good calculator, you will find that a human eating a 2000 calorie diet (what I eat), has an average energy output of 100watts.  There are 3.41BTUs/hr per watt.  So 10 USDA sized humans are going to generate 1000 watts of heat (3410 btu/hr).  I guess if you have a room full of 400lb people eating 4000 calories a day, then they might output your 6000 btus.

Just imagine how much more heat our super sized 5.3 cell bees must be making  grin 

I use the same Laws of Physics as Frameshift and Finski
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2011, 11:12:53 AM »

Well BlueBee, perhaps the diners are Italian and it takes them 2 hours to eat dinner.  grin  (He said 6000 BTU, not 6000 BTU/hr)
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Acebird
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« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2011, 11:20:15 AM »

Step Three

Calculate the heat generated by occupants, allow 600 BTU per person.
Occupant BTU = number of people x 600


http://www.tombling.com/cooling/heat-load-calculations.htm

Oh my god, have you ever designed a heating system?  I am rusty I admit.  It has been 35 years or better.  Maybe you should have learned to use a slide rule first then you could handle a calculator.
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« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2011, 11:23:40 AM »

Ouch  grin

I thought slide rules were only good for digging dead bees out of COLD wooden hives?
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Acebird
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« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2011, 11:30:10 AM »

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When the "bee breath" changes from gas to liquid and condenses, it gives up heat to the surface it condenses on.  Condensation heats the hive surfaces.

Exactly, the roof and then it passes through the roof and outside.  Heat rises.  If you put your radiators in a ceiling you will freeze your A$$.  The condensate also has heat.  If you don't believe me check out a steam radiator system (and not with your hand or you will be sorry).
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Finski
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« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2011, 11:30:53 AM »



What are you suggesting Mr. Finski?  Should we climb inside our hives to keep the bees warm?  I don't think anyone is suggesting that bees don't give off heat.  But the analogy between a bee and a human is ridiculous.  Ten people sitting in a room eating dinner put out 6000 btu's.  That is more than enough to raise the temp in that room 40 degrees.  Your thermostat on the wall will react to that and shut off your heating system.


Where is the corelation here?


What ever. But how I can explain these things to humans who cannot undestand the meaning of

source of heat
insulation
ventilation
relative moisture
dew point
respiration moisture
condensation
meaning of wind

All is stupid mesh from year to year....

catch respiration moisture of newspaper piece and handfull of sugar
 15 mm hive wall
ventilation holes everywhere
more cold, less energy needed

****

Do you take moisture away from your room with sugar?

When I was a shild, my parents put inside window gap a match box that it takes moisture from air.

Then California beeks hive adviced to NY beeks to to ventilate and insulate.

Yesterday my hive are had temp -27C and now it is -3C.

Los Angekes forecast http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Los_Angeles.html

Detroit forecast  http://www.wunderground.com/US/MI/Detroit.html

Anchorage forecast http://www.wunderground.com/US/AK/Anchorage.html

Helsinki Finland http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/02974.html

.

.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2011, 01:00:37 PM »

Hoo-Boy!  I actually have seen a controversy of the theory of "Bee Heating" not too much unlike the arguments concerning whether the Dinosaur died out or evolved into birds! cool

All I can say is, from what I have gathered, these rules hold dear:
  • Do not open the hive until temps are in a livable range.
  • Insulation is useful for creating an environment closer to winter in the south.  (Here in North America, that would be above freezing with the temps dipping down on occasion.  In TN I see snow on the ground for a week at most, occasionally staying for a month or more.  In FL, I saw snow once in 1989, and it would freeze one day on average/year)
  • Humidity is not the culprit, condensation is.
  • Moisture conducts heat more readily than dry air.
  • Beekeepers have more gadgets and inventions than computer geeks.

Finski is no doubt right by experience, but I can never tell if his arguments are for or against his subject.  The fact he is getting results indicates by way of the law of pragmatism (If it works, it's true!  If something shouldn't work, but does nonetheless, then it's probably true.) that he knows what he is talking about, and is correct in these circumstances.

It's not possible for the bees to heat the interior of the hive body by default, that would be impractical.  It is practical to heat the cluster and assume it will create an environment within the cavity that would be more survivable, which is how I understand the theory.

One of my favorite words, to disambiguate, theory, as I'm using it, is in the Scientific way.  Gravitation has theory behind it, and saying "Theoretical" doesn't mean it's "not real."
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Acebird
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« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2011, 01:23:55 PM »

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It is practical to heat the cluster and assume it will create an environment within the cavity that would be more survivable,

I think it is an assumption to assume this is practical.
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Finski
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« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2011, 01:38:05 PM »

.

Heh boy!

 I see that you live in Tennesee and this is your winter:
http://www.wunderground.com/US/TN/Murfreesboro.html

today half cloudy
6° C | 1° C
   
half cloudy
12° C | 2° C
   
cloudy
12° C | 2° C
   
cloudy
11° C | 4° C

That is our May weather.

That is our May weather.

Do not open the hive until temps are in a livable range - bees stay on their frames in -10C. They have not a single brood there. They have crystallized snow and ice inside the hive.

Finski is no doubt right by experience, but I can never tell if his arguments are for or against his subject.  The fact he is getting results indicates by way of the law of pragmatism (If it works, it's true!  If something shouldn't work, but does nonetheless, then it's probably true.) that he knows what he is talking about, and is correct in these circumstances.

I have almost 50 years experience and I have studied these things in university 5 years, for example how plants and animals survive in Polar Circle nature.



I am not telling jokes here like most of you do.

.  It is practical to heat the cluster and assume it will create an environment within the cavity that would be more survivable, which is how I understand the theory.

I understand very well the theory. It is needless to argue about it. Others have researched that several times. There is no mystery in it.

The cluster has core temp 23C in winter, and after a month they have some brood. The heat rises to 32-35 C. I may push the digital thermometer into the cluster and I see same temp what researches speak.

The temp of outer bee layer is about 12C.
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf

in 8C temp the bee do not wake up with its own help.  All these can be read in numerous books and researches.

That above is roughly said without decimals.

Part of cluster may die when another part continues life to next spring.

There is no need to know bee by bee what happens there. This is rough science. When I put in winter condition a big hive, there may be a cup full of bees after cleansing flight. Nosema mostly kill bees and it is unnecessary to argue winter cluster size and its temperature. They are under snow and it is needles to go listen them and wake them up every time.

The hive saves energy and protects the cluster and especially its outer layer.

It is same with human houses. If some one has poorly insulated house, we use to say "He lives like   in a twig hut".

I have seen in TV the structure of your houses in those "repairing and selling programs". That style of insulating is here out of law. You cannot get permission to make house if it has not a proper insulation.

And if you do not so and you do not heat enough, water pipes and sewage pipes will blow out by the pressure of icing. That happened this winter in Ireland.

My fried family visited in Mexico City. They shivered every nigh there like bees.

We have outside -20C but at home we have +23C.

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Finski
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« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2011, 02:34:31 PM »

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE FROM THE AREA WHERE, I SUPPOSE, HIVES HAVE BROOD OVER WINTER

 Most commonly, bees are overwintered in 2 deep boxes full of bees, pollen and honey. About 80-90 pounds of honey per hive insures an adequate winter food supply.

insulation wrapped hives
     


     I wrapped my hives in a blanket of insulation. This is the first time I have insulated hives. Insulating hives to conserve heat is controversial. The concern is that decreased circulation with insulation will cause an increase in humidity inside the hives. The increased humidity results in condensation forming and cold water dripping on the bees.

MY OPINION

The consumption of the hive is so big that it must have brood inside. It is very differnet in my area because with that consumption hives will die in long winter.

Insulation rises heat inside and decreases relatuve moisture. Adding  temp makes hive dryer.

cold water dripping on the bees ---> it means that in inner cover there is weak insulation. Cover is cold and moist air condensates above the cluster.

The gap between inner and outer cover need good ventilation too that moisture leave the gap with the aid of wind.

It gies wrong if you keep in the inner cover a ventilation hole. Warm air rises against the cold outercover and rains back to the inner cover insulation. Upper entrance must be in front wall of the hive and moisture get out via it.  Even after summer nights I see that condensated water dipps from uppe entrance hole. Bees dry up the neactar and vapour meets the dew point at door.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 02:44:45 PM by Finski » Logged

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Acebird
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« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2011, 02:34:57 PM »

Quote
The temp of outer bee layer is about 12C.
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf

in 8C temp the bee do not wake up with its own help.  All these can be read in numerous books and researches.

That above is roughly said without decimals.


This same study keeps getting quoted.  There is a lot of technical crap to weed though to fine anything that your are preaching.  As yet I haven’t found anything that supports your verbiage.  I almost hate to mention this but you do realize that a Flair camera cannot read air temperature.  In can only read radiation emitted from a surface that has mass.  It is optical and must be focused to that plane.
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Finski
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« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2011, 02:46:25 PM »

.
Sorry Acebird but you have not enough theoretical knowledge to undestand that crap.
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Finski
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« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2011, 03:07:25 PM »

As yet I haven’t found anything that supports your verbiage.
It is not my fault. If I say something wrong, I have presented to you real rsearches and read those, not my mad mind.


 
Quote
I almost hate to mention this but you do realize that a Flair camera cannot read air temperature. 

You don't understand the basic. That's it.

Quote
In can only read radiation emitted from a surface that has mass.  It is optical and must be focused to that plane.

The heat radiation is called too infra red (below visible red color radiation)

With infrared camera you make visible the differencies ot the temperature. It s difficut to measure the queen thorax withnormal thermometer but with infrared it can be seen that it is 42C when the queen land onto swarm.

When the swarm is ready to continue its way, it rises quickly temperature to 39C which means "rapid flying temperature".  It has been revieled with inrared camera.



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Acebird
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« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2011, 06:25:39 PM »

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Sorry Acebird but you have not enough theoretical knowledge to undestand that crap.

OK you win.  You must be right.

Problem is I read through sections of it, don't disagree with what is written.  But for the live of me I can't make any correlations between what you claim and what is written in the research paper.  It's like you are flagging something in front of somebody and hoping they will explain it to you because you don't know what it means.

So at this point I going to say you win.
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« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2011, 11:19:46 PM »

HaHaHaHahahahaha!!!

My brother is just like this guy!  One time I told him the Black Hills of South Dakota was the religious center of North America, and he spent 3 days telling me about the "Sioux," and how they didn't have any history in the state.  Finski, my friend, I said that.

I have 35 years of experience with bees, though around 30 of those have been looking at hives from over the fence, in the field from the road, or telling folks not to worry about the swarm because if they just leave the bees alone, they will probably go away on their own.  I have 3 empty hives right now which I need to fill with bees for whatever reasons, but mostly because I wanted to use them for pollination.

You don't have to keep pounding that you live in a cold place.  I know how cold it gets up in the northern parts of the world.  As I mentioned South Dakota, I was born in the capital.  It's pronounced Peer, and not Pee-Air.  Finland doesn't have a monopoly on cold weather!

Relax!  You don't need to carry a "Chip on your shoulder."  We aren't saying your beekeeping wisdom is questionable.

As for bees and cold, these bees lived out in the barn, in the shade, for 3 years without management until I tried to get them in a KTBH in August.  What I don't have experience with is Small Hive Beetles, Varroa, and Tracheal mites.  They absconded, and died out in October.  The playing field has changed, and I find everything I knew has as well.



Acebird, the options are:
  • Heating the entire cavity
  • Heating the cluster
  • Not heating anything

Of these basic options, I would state the most practical would be to heat the cluster.  The other two options lead to death or extra work.  I would assume the heat given off by the bees and trapped in the cavity is incidental and would serve to give the bees a better chance because they would not need to burn the extra calories to keep the cluster warm as they would if the temperature was, estimating, 20 to 40 degrees colder.
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