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Author Topic: For those who think treating with sugar is "Non-Chemical"  (Read 29085 times)
BjornBee
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2008, 08:00:48 AM »

MaryAnn Frazier from Penn State has tested a couple hundred samples of CCD comb. No one particular neonicotinoid or other systemic pesticide was found in all samples. The highest non-beekeeper introduced chemical tested out in about 30% of the CCD samples. Neonicotinoids are not being found in levels to suggest "coincides".

What was found, was 100% of the samples tested for the chemicals in Apistan and Checkmite, and the off label brands of these same chemicals also used by many commercial beekeepers.

The thing with chems, is that many are tolerated by bees at somewhat low safe levels(not an endorsement). But when you mix these same somewhat non-impacting chemicals in the hive, they have a far higher multiplication factor making them deadly. On a scale of 1 to 10, if you take two chemicals rated as 1 (1 being the lowest impacting chems on the scale), then the combination of these chems often does not add up to a 2. When mixing chems, 1 plus 1 often results in 5, 8, or even 10 (being the deadliest).

What was found in all CCD hives, was an average of (If I remember) 7 or 8 different chems, with the highest being in the high twenties. But remember, only two chems were found in EVERY sample. Both being beekeeper approved chems and used off-brand by many at levels far exceeding anything in a couple of strips.

It's the power and damage of having multiple chems feeding off each other.

Keeping all chems out of the hives is best. I don't use sugar treatments. But feel they are one of the safest soft treatments out there.

I personally do not use any acid treatments. Many I see use them late in the year after the fall brood cycle is complete, and mites have already done their damage. My personal opinion is that there is a fine line between enough acid to kill a mite, and NOT harm a bee. That's why using these acid treatments prior to the fall flow should be encouraged, if used. That way, you knock the mites down prior to the fall brood cycle so that you have healthy bees unaffected by both mites and acid treatments. (This of course does not acount for the queen's health)

Keeping beekeeper induced chemicals out of the hive, rotating out comb (to keep chemical buildup from whatever the source), and other approaches will keep many from ever having problems with CCD. (I'll add...IF this is CCD). Which by the way is what most commercial guys do not do.

Not sure if I'm convinced about worrying about chems in sugar. More concerned about the average homeowner and the hundreds of products they can buy at the local hardware store.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2008, 07:51:32 PM »

>More concerned about the average homeowner and the hundreds of products they can buy at the local hardware store.

Definitely.
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Michael Bush
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mgmoore7
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2009, 10:35:35 AM »

My .02 is anything really 100% organic anymore? Stuffs in our water, air, food, feed, our homes our cars, our cats our dogs.

All we can do is our best in an imperfect world.


...JP

This is an excellent point.  My wife and I attempt to eat as "natural" as possible by eliminating boxed & preprepared foods, growing our own vegetables, etc.  We mill our own wheat, make our foods from scratch, etc.  We are very weird when compared to most of the US.  But with all of that, there is still much that we don't have any control over so we just have to do what we can with what is in our control. 

The reason we got into to beekeeping was for this exact reason.  Virtually all of our bread products and alot of our sugar needs are replaced with honey.  We wanted to have unprocesssed and "organic" honey rather than not knowing what process was used.  Even with this, while I believe we are much better than buying the honey, what we are doing still doesn't completely fullfill our hope.  We can't control the pesticides used on plants, what the water is contaminated with and what process the sugar for the sugar water went through.....
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doak
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2009, 10:24:38 PM »

Granulated, pure cane sugar.
Run it through the blender. Presto. powdered sugar.
pure. rolleyes :)doak
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2009, 09:45:30 PM »

Here is portion of an email that those treating with sugar might find interesting.  I have not done any investigating to validate anything claimed, nor am I trying to cause alarm.  Use your own judgment.

Quote
Dear Beekeeper,

I recently circulated a warning about possible Imidacloprid contamination in sugar beet, which many beekeepers feed to their bees. Since this has caused some discussion, I thought you may like to hear some facts that I discovered while checking the original story.



lots of white sugar comes with the label "pure cane"  sugar cane is a grass - of sorts. (incidentally- the process of refining sugar is a handful of steps using some very harmless sounding minerals [chalk] to separate the - not white-  sugar from the rest - molasses cane bits - etc.) my (personal) objection as to eating white sugar is that (as opposed to crystallized cane juice) it is nutritionally bankrupt for humans where the organic stuff has extra bits in it that are probably helpful for people digesting the sugar. if you google sugar refining there's a step by step if you're interested.
I have to wonder as a result why sugar dusting for mites is such a big deal to organophiles

2: scary chemical: dihydrogen monoxide. (for fun) Look it up and consider how long it takes you to feel silly.
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dragonfly
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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2009, 09:17:45 PM »

Hmmm. I was planning to start powdered sugar dusting treatments this summer. I wonder if there would be a significant difference if you used organic sugar? I would certainly think so, but I'll see if I can find any info on it.
Thanks for the heads up. I never really thought about that.
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mgmoore7
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2009, 09:24:00 PM »

I am far more worried about the pesticides on the flowers my bees are visiting than the sugar I dust with occasionally.  Clearly, the worst of the two in my example, we have little to no control over. 
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giant pumpkin peep
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2009, 08:32:23 PM »

Honestly....suger is a heck of a lot better than apistana dn other chemicals. If it harmed bees people wouldn't use it. Mite can't become resistant to it unless the evolve to have feet the can stink on to bee no matter what is thrown at them. I think that take longer than becoming resistant to chems.

just my 2 cents
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Robo
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2009, 09:50:20 PM »

Honestly....suger is a heck of a lot better than apistana dn other chemicals.
I don't think anyone here would disagree with you on that.  The point of my post was for those that think treating with sugar is not treating with a chemical.  Some folks want to be black and white on chemicals and make "chemicals" out to be a bad thing, when in reality there is a wide variety of chemicals all with different levels of toxicity.

Quote
If it harmed bees people wouldn't use it.
Boy, that is putting a lot of faith into "man knows best".  From a recent conference, I understand a Swedish? scientist has just discovered that feeding sugar kills at least 2 of the microbes living in the bee gut.  Does that harm the bee?  I don't know,  but I can guess it doesn't help them.

Quote
Mite can't become resistant to it unless the evolve to have feet the can stink on to bee no matter what is thrown at them.
Isn't that the whole principle behind evolution?  The ones with better grip survive and mate with other "better grippers" and after a few generations we only have mites with kung-fu grip (Sorry couldn't help reverting back to my childhood with GI Joe...)

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I think that take longer than becoming resistant to chems.
Why?

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giant pumpkin peep
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2009, 10:14:45 PM »

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Why?

because with the miticides on the market the mites that arn't affected live and breed. It has been shown that powdered suger is the zize of voarroa(wrong spelling) mites legs. Therefor the mite would have to form a better grip. Not just survive repetitive mite treatments.
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homer
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2009, 09:09:11 PM »

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Why?

because with the miticides on the market the mites that arn't affected live and breed. It has been shown that powdered suger is the zize of voarroa(wrong spelling) mites legs. Therefor the mite would have to form a better grip. Not just survive repetitive mite treatments.

Yes, but the mites wouldn't have the issue of surviving treatments because the sugar doesn't harm them, it just makes them fall off and lose their grip.  Seriously.. how heavy of a blast of sugar do you need to put on the bees so that you can be sure that every spot of every bee that a mite may live is covered enough that the mites will fall off.  And say that Mite were a stubborn Mite and decided to just hang on for dear life till all the sugar was gone so that his tiny little feet didn't get slippery with sugar?  And then he were to tell all his buddies to do the same thing.  There are a ton of mite treatment methods and I can dare guess that everyone you talk to will swear by one or two methods and hate the rest of them.  Just do what works for you. 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2009, 10:43:09 AM »

The other problem with powdered sugar (besides the shift in pH and the brood that dies from drying out with the starch) is that bees who cannot take care of the Varroa continue to breed and those genes stay in the gene pool.
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Michael Bush
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Jim 134
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2009, 11:31:15 AM »

The other problem with powdered sugar (besides the shift in pH and the brood that dies from drying out with the starch) is that bees who cannot take care of the Varroa continue to breed and those genes stay in the gene pool.


   Not all powdered sugar has starch just my $.02




      BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley
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deknow
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2009, 11:53:54 AM »

a few thoughts:

1.  unnatural concentrations of "natural substances" are...unnatural, certainly unnatural in the beehive.  ie, cocaine is a natural substance that is harmless/mild in it's natural concentration (i've had tea made from raw leaves...about as stimulating as a cup of coffee), but becomes problematic when concentrated.  where in nature does thyme oil occur in anything within orders of magnitude of what is used in the beehive?  how "safe" is essential oil of poison ivy?...a lot less safe than poison ivy is!

2. likewise, misplaced natural substances are unnatural.  you have acid in your stomach that you wouldn't want to wash your face with.

3. sugar (feeding or dusting) has some real implications.  first of all, as michael bush has pointed out many times, the ph of sugar is more conducive to growing AFB and many other diseases than that of honey.  secondly, some of the research out of sweden has recently shown that feeding sugar over the winter kills 4 novel (occuring no where else on the planet) strains of bacillus that live in the honeystomach of the honeybee, and doubtless have all manner of other effects on the thousands and thousands of strains of microbes that live in the hive, and make it a hospitable environment for honeybees.

i repeat my request for volunteers.  if you think your sugar feed doesn't get into your honey, why shouldn't feed syrup be dyed with food coloring to make sure?

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2009, 02:28:36 PM »

Try making powdered sugar from regular sugar in the blender and put that in with some brood.  They will still die, starch or not, as the sugar will dry them out either way.
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Michael Bush
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Beekissed
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« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2010, 02:05:38 PM »

Due to all the controversy over treating for varroas and feeding sugar syrup, wouldn't it make more sense to let the bees dependent on these methods for survival just die off and retain the bees that are hardy and mite resistant.  I know this would take some time and one would suffer losses, but wouldn't it be worth the effort in the long run if one were wanting to go all natural in their beekeeping efforts? 

Like, letting the bees keep their honey stores and only harvest in the spring, drawing from winters leftovers?  Or letting bees build their own brood combs, thus decreasing the amount of varroa that survive? 

Just supposing......   I dunno
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Ollie
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2010, 11:46:41 PM »

Quote
Like, letting the bees keep their honey stores and only harvest in the spring, drawing from winters leftovers?  Or letting bees build their own brood combs, thus decreasing the amount of varroa that survive? 

Just supposing......   I dunno


So what do you do?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2010, 11:59:55 PM »

It's difficult to harvest in the spring.  The honey is usually crystallized.  Also the bees gauge how much brood to rear by how much stores they have.  If you change that equation you may leave them starving at the time they are most likely to starve, early spring.
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Michael Bush
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doak
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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2010, 11:14:57 AM »

So for those who  have real tight thing on chemicals, I would say find another hobby, side line or what not.
How do you know what the bees bring into the hive? The best you can do is nothing, as for as chemicals go, and hope for the best.
Breed for hygienic behavior and let the bees build their own comb. That way you will not be buying foundation that you don't know the source of the wax.

We have became a people who want what we want and we want it now. Not gonna happen.  :)doak
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luvin honey
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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2010, 11:25:46 PM »

i repeat my request for volunteers.  if you think your sugar feed doesn't get into your honey, why shouldn't feed syrup be dyed with food coloring to make sure?
That would be a very interesting study. I am more interested, though, in what sugar feeding does to the bees. I cannot find a single redeeming quality in sugar for humans, so it's even harder to imagine there would be any for the bees. And, yes, I fed them a LOT of sugar last year. I was thrilled to see that my surviving hive has honey for this cold spring...
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