Facts {and Theories} about trap outs

[iddee]

This is an intermediate post with a few ideas about trap outs. It will be followed by a post on checking and concluding a trap out sometime later.

Fact....If one worker finds a way back in, she will lead the rest to
that entrance. After that, they will continue to look for other
entrances. It is nearly impossible to seal all entrances if it isn't
done with the initial set up.

Theory....I think the queen reacts as if there is a dearth when the
foragers stop bringing in pollen and nectar. She quits laying.
Therefore, my belief is that the last egg is laid within a week of the
trap being set. That leaves a total of 4 weeks from set up, until the
last worker emerges. As with everything about bees, this can vary.

I have never seen a hive starve to death in the summer. I have seen
them use up all stores in a dearth in the summer and abscond.
Therefore, when a trap out runs out of stores, the queen and the
remaining bees will abscond. The majority of the time she will pass
the catch box and land on a bush in the area. From there, it is like a
swarm. If you find her in time, they can be hived. If not, they follow
the scouts.

a trap on a newly arrived swarm will many times leave within the first
2 or 3 days. They have no brood, no stores, and no reason to stay in
their new home. Many of these queens will take the catch box, many
will not. a colony that has been established for quite some time will
almost always leave the area, leaving only the bees that have taken up
in the catch box prior to the departure.

I have been told by beeks in heavy SHB areas that the SHB will
devastate a colony before the trap out can be completed.If you have a
problem with SHB in your area, you may want to do the trapouts in
early spring before the SHB get strong.   

[asprince]

Interesting. Do you base your theory on what you feel or experience? It makes since to me.

Steve

[iddee]

I base it on conclusions I have come to after many trap outs. I have never torn into a wall after one week of trapping in order to prove it. The outcome of many trap outs seem to verify it, and I haven't seen anything to dispute it.

It is only theory, tho.

[G3farms]

what if you built a screen type cage and put it on the end of the funnel after most of the worker bees have left, and when the queen and remaining few bees abscond then they too would be caught in the screen cage. Then the funnel could be removed and the robbing could begin. Does that make any sense?? I know it would be a little more time consuming to check on them but you could catch the queen also.

Just thinking out loud.

G3

[iddee]

This whole trap out thing is still in infancy. I'm sure there will be a lot of improvements as others try different ideas. Give it a try and let us know how it works.

[wayne]

   I have seen references to the cone trap going back at least a generation. And over that time the goal has never been to get the queen.
   The main goal is almost always to remove the bees from their current location. The trap is used only because a cutout isn't possible. Almost every effort is with a bait hive with brood and eggs, basically a weak split from another hive, and the hope that the trapped out bees will become the workers for said hive.
   Some have placed the cone very near, or even in, the entrance to the bait hive. Some are testing and have tested ways to guide the queen into the bait hive where it is hoped she will halt her effort to abscond.
   The trick I think is in designing a simple easy to use setup that will bring about the absconding that is the goal, and yet hold the queen in place until she accepts the new home.
   I find it interesting that the time period of 2 weeks is so often mentioned in doing a trap out. When one considers that about 4 weeks is needed to hatch the existing brood.

[Luckyparrot]

Iddee, thanks for the facts. I want to trap out a colony from a tree, but did have the gut to do so because I thought I'll kill all broods and eggs. The people that live near the tree had called the city and many bees experts, but none of them can help. I will do it this weekend and will update you.   

[Luckyparrot]

Iddee, when you found out there are more than one queen cell in a trap out box, what do you normally do with them, to prevent that box from swarming? 

[iddee]

That box won't swarm. The first queen out will kill all the rest.

If you get there before the first one comes out and you have 7 or more frames of bees, you can remove that box, cutout a queen cell or two, install it in a second box, and start your second hive with cells instead of eggs.

[Luckyparrot]

Thanks, Iddee. I thought I can do it this weekend, using the box that I built it myself. But I just found a website that sells boxes cheaper than built-it-myself boxes. I don't know if you know this one yet. It calls mannlakeltd.com  Hopefully it will arrive soon.

[Luckyparrot]

Iddee, I finally did it. http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Trapout1#
As you can see from the pictures, the bees are just hanging on the wall, refusing to go inside the box. After about 3hrs, they finally went inside when I smoked them.  I'm little bit concerned about the eggs and broods. How many hrs can they survive without the full attention of nurses?   Oh, you said that after I find queen cells, I can cut out one or two and put in the second box. But how do I cut the cell without damaging it? Since I'm using plastic frames and foundation, it's just impossible to cut through. Thanks

[iddee]

The eggs should be fine. They are much tougher than larva. If the larva was damaged, they will just wait for the eggs to hatch. That's why I stress using eggs.

As for the cell cutting, I have never found plastic in a feral hive, so I have never put plastic in a managed hive. You are on your own there.

[The Bix]

So I'm about to put together my first trap out and I'm unclear about a few things.  Do ALL the bees, including the ones in the catch box bail out with her in a swarm if she passes the catch box?  Or is it just the bees that remain with her?

[The Bix]

I was speaking of the queen of course in the above post.

[iddee]

The bees become residents of the catch box and no longer belong to the house colony after 3 days. Any bees that have been in the hive 3 days or more will stay there. The bees leaving the house with the queen will go with her. The bees that have been out 1 or 2 days is questionable.

[Luckyparrot]

"The bees that have been out 1 or 2 days is questionable" Iddee, no wonder the bees in my catch box seemed less than the last time I checked, which was 2 days ago.  Yes, the bees managed to chew through the hard paperboard. I had to use calking o fill up the hole. I should have used plywood as you suggested. 

[Luckyparrot]

Iddee, there was no queen cell after 9 days. This is what the frame looked like . http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Noqueen#5361533862107507602
 After that I put in another frame completely filled with eggs and broods. http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Newframe#5361536848685535794
 And it has been 3 days since. So today I opened the box to check for queen cell, but still, there is none.
 I'm using the Lang frame and foundation on both time. May be the bees had no room to build queen cell on Rite-Cell? Do I need a frame with no plastic foundation for bees to make queen cell? Thanks

[iddee]

I have never used plastic of any kind in a hive, so I can't help you on that question. Maybe someone else has raised emergency queens on plastic and will step in here.

[Robo]

Bees will raise emergency queens with plastic foundation.   They float the larvae out to the front of the comb when making emergency queens,  so foundation type is irrelevant.

[Luckyparrot]

 Robo, you're right. I checked again today and the bees did build 7-8 queen cells. Last time  I didn't see it, because I was checking the box too soon, only 3 days later after putting in the frame with broods and eggs. Anyway, I have another dilemma. The Iddee cone is clogged because there are so much dead bees and broods inside it. And, strangely, all of them are drones. Should I drill another hole to place another cone or should I cut the hole of the existing cone bigger so that bees can carry out dead bees ? Thanks !

[iddee]

My cone is made from 1/8 inch hardware and has an opening large enough for two drones to exit together. If that is what you have, just clean out the bodies and leave it as is. If not, change it.

[Luckyparrot]

Ok, it's been about three weeks since I put the eggs and brood frame in the trap out box. Today I took a look inside the box and saw this :  http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Newqueen#
 Can anyone tell from her looks that the queen has mated or still a virgin?
 

[Robo]

She looks like she may be mated.  Virgins will have a stubby abdomen.  The worker bees around her seem to be paying attention to her as well.  Where a virgin seems to roam around unnoticed.  She is still quite young and I would be optimistic at this point.  She should start laying by the end of week 4.

[Jim 134]

She looks like she may be mated.  Virgins will have a stubby abdomen.  The worker bees around her seem to be paying attention to her as well.  Where a virgin seems to roam around unnoticed.  She is still quite young and I would be optimistic at this point.  She should start laying by the end of week 4.

   ditto I would look for eggs in about 7-10 days



      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 

[Luckyparrot]

 Thank you guys, I'm planning to leave that box there for another three weeks, before removing the cone. I then will post the pictures. Hopefully by that time all the bees will have exited.

[rnotfour]

I have followed the awesome trap out postings and read through almost all the treads. I have an opportunity to do a trap out that has been in a house for about 3 to 4 years.  By the activity I have observed it looks to be rather large.   I didn't see any one state an optimal time of the year that trap outs are best performed.  If I were to start now it could take some time and see myself running into cold weather and an unsuccessful out come.  Any advise would be appreciated.

[Robo]

First of all please update your profile with your location, as it helps answers questions better.

In general, my feelings are wait until spring when the population is low.  Or if you want to get the genetics (if they have been feral for 3-4 years, they are obviously excellent survivor stock) I would definitely look heavily into the possibility of doing a cut-out.  If the cutout is truly not feasible, you could attempt to catch a spring swarm and then start the trap-out.  That way you get the genetics and start the trap-out when the population is reduced.  Of course setting swarm traps is no guarantee you will get the swarm.

[rnotfour]

Sorry Robo, its updated.  Winston Salem NC,  Cut out is out of the question.  Homeowner doesn't want any demolition going on inside the home due to plaster walls.  Bee's have nested in floor joist channel which runs across living room.  They have enjoyed some warm winters. 

[iddee]

In the floor of the living room or in the ceiling, under the second story room? That will make a big difference.

BTW, I am 35 mile from you.

[rnotfour]

In the living room ceiling under a 2nd story bedroom.  If pictures would help I can post them?

[iddee]

You can post the "before" pics, here are the "after" pics...      





That makes it much harder. I recommend waiting until spring. If they have been there 2 or 3 years, one more winter won't hurt. Removing them now would be disastrous.

[rnotfour]

Thanks that one looked like fun mine is probably a similar situation.  I will wait until spring.  It will probably depend on the weather but when would you plan to start the trap out given our areas climate?  You presented at our Forsyth Bee Association, great presentation.  It is nice to have beekeepers like you willing to share information to us just starting out.  Thanks for your insight.   

[iddee]

Yep, you've got me pegged. I enjoyed the meeting. You have a lot of good people in your club.
I would start the trap with the first sighting of a drone in the spring, on the morning of a day forecast to be sunny and above 60 degrees.

[Meadlover]

Great thread iddee!

I have just completed my 1st trapout thanks to your trapout threads and it all went very smoothly due to the very in depth information that you have compiled in here, so thanks for putting in the effort to help so many of us   

My question is - can I use a queen-right hive as the trapout box?
I'm assuming it will be OK as the returning foragers will have lost the scent (or almost lost the scent) of their queen, and will therefore join the trapout queen-right hive. Is my theory correct or flawed?

Thanks

ML

[iddee]

I have only tried it once. I had a hive that only had one frame of bees and a queen. When I removed the first box with queen cells, I put it on the trap. It worked fine and the hive prospered. I haven't tried a free ranging queen on the beginning of a trap. If you do, please post how it works. My guess is it will work fine, but only a few live tests will tell for sure.

Thanks for the kudos. I'm glad it worked for you.

[Meadlover]

What I found most useful about your trapout guides is WHY to do what you do. Once I understand the theory of what's going on everything makes sense and I can then apply that knowledge to other beekeeping scenarios. The photos were also really good.

Well, I guess I will get back to everyone in the next few weeks on how a trapout goes with a queen-right hive 
This is what I have done:
Did my 1st trapout which now has a laying queen.
Started my 2nd trapout using the hive from my 1st trapout.

ML